photomc said:Rather than continue to hijack scootermm (sorry Matt) thread to ask about toning VDB and other alt. process, thought I would start a new thread. With the wealth of knowledge here hoping to get a better understanding about how toning affects VDB (or other process that anyone wants to add).
Don (donbga) mentioned that you had used LiPd with Kallitypes and was wondering if you had any examples you could point to. Admittedly do no know much about Kallitypes, maybe Sandy could stop by and offer some info, but curious if the bleach back I saw with the VDB is common?
Wondering what toners others have used with different alt process? What were the results and did you like them. Anyone know of any older process that were used?
As always Thanks in Advance.
sanking said:Both VDB and kallitype prints *must* be toned for archival purposes. Without toning any residual iron salts that remain in the print will react with the silver metal and cause the print to fade. This is not a possibility, it is a certainty.
Thanks Sandy, that is very good information. The procedures you outlined here are the same ones I use, so at least think am on the right track. One question for you or anyone else. The toner used in citric acid, like plt/pld, will these keep or should they be made up fresh each session? The reason for the question is with KRST and silver prints you can continue to use the same toner and replinish it as needed (my take on that is when it no longer yields the expected result). Would quess with the VDB or kallitype, since the toning metal is replacing the silver, the toner would exhaust quicker and at some point there would be very little of the toner metal left in the toning solution....is this true?sanking said:Toning adds great permannce to both VDB and kallitype prints. Many people have the idea that in toning the silver of VDB and kallitype prints is coated with the toning metal, but that is not the case. The silver is actually *replaced* by the toning metal, so that for all practical purposes VDB and kallitype prints toned with platinum or palladium have the same type of permanence as a regular platinum or palladium print. All of this assumes good processing of course, but you must do that with Pt./Pd. as well for image permanence.
Sandy
photomc said:The toner used in citric acid, like plt/pld, will these keep or should they be made up fresh each session? The reason for the question is with KRST and silver prints you can continue to use the same toner and replinish it as needed (my take on that is when it no longer yields the expected result). Would quess with the VDB or kallitype, since the toning metal is replacing the silver, the toner would exhaust quicker and at some point there would be very little of the toner metal left in the toning solution....is this true?
Thanks again everyone..
sanking said:You use the gold, palladium and platinum toners (at least the ones mixed with citric acid) as one-shot and then discard. The stock solutions last indefinitely if mixed with distilled water. I have had some problems with the stock stability of the gold toner but the platinim and palladium ones last for months, maybe years.
If you use a flat bottom tray you can tone a print with a very small amount of toner. 10ml is more than enough for a 5X7 print, for example.
Sandy
photomc said:Rather than continue to hijack scootermm (sorry Matt) thread to ask about toning VDB and other alt. process, thought I would start a new thread
scootermm said:always so much helpful information sandy.... wish I could return the favor some how
one question... I had about 20 prints all laid out last night at a meeting and looking at the platinum toned 7x17 I find I like it more and more... and it solves the "temporary" nature of VDB so I want to start making a habit of pt toning everytime I print a Van Dyke. my question is where do you get your flat bottom trays from? Im finding that I need too much solution in a HUGE 16x20 tray to adequately get the print cover.
like mike, thanks in advance.
scootermm said:my question is where do you get your flat bottom trays from? Im finding that I need too much solution in a HUGE 16x20 tray to adequately get the print cover.
like mike, thanks in advance.
scootermm said:always so much helpful information sandy.... wish I could return the favor some how
one question... I had about 20 prints all laid out last night at a meeting and looking at the platinum toned 7x17 I find I like it more and more... and it solves the "temporary" nature of VDB so I want to start making a habit of pt toning everytime I print a Van Dyke. my question is where do you get your flat bottom trays from? Im finding that I need too much solution in a HUGE 16x20 tray to adequately get the print cover.
like mike, thanks in advance.
cjarvis said:My experience in albumen and POP concurs with Sandy's VDB and kalli info regarding which toner to use when in the sequence. I'm cheap (read poor), so I use selenium for the most part. A moderately toned kallitype (30-45 seconds in a 1:50 solution) takes on the look of a really warm pd print with no bleaching and tonal rendition that rivals pt/pd. YMMV
sanking said:Is this a 1:50 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner? Most of the people I know who are toning kallitypes with Rapid Selenium are using a much more dilute solution, say 1:500. I suspect that kind of solution really does give much permanence but I bet your 1:50 dilution does.
And exactly when are you toning? After final wash, or do you allow the print to dry and then tone later?
Sandy
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