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Tired of film-users bashing
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I worked at one of (the) major camera store chains here in LA. unfortunately, got laid off earlier this year in January due to the fact that I was part-time on the schedule but full-time in hours 
. I agree with the "people behind the counter sell the digital b/c it makes money". Plain and simple, it does....
For every 2-3 rolls of film that I sold, I sold 1 ink cartridge. Also, a good deal of inkjet paper. I had the opportunity of meeting some terrific photographers, some of whom I have assisted, who still like what film gives them. One still uses it on jobs 75% of the time. She is no more that 120lbs dripping wet, but she lugs around an RZ67 all day long. She told me that she shoots the d!g1+@l stuff for clients, so at the end of the day, they have something to look at on their laptops. She shoots the important, and final shots on Portra 160/400vc and 800 film.
In regards to the "spiffs" mentioned on the 1st few pages of this thread, yes, many stores and manufacturers do give incentives to salespeople who sell their products. I got it when I sold the stuff. It paid for 2 new camera system this past year. But really folks, the advertising world, and in a sense, the pro world is d!g1+tal now. You can start with film, but it gets digitized for printing and web use, catalog, etc...
So the starting medium isn't really the concern for many people these days, but the time involved. Clients generally don't have 2-3 weeks before separations have to be made, they have to have files ready to send to the printer in a week or less from the end of the shoot. So speed is what has driven the shift.
I personally favor film for my personal work, because I like having something tangible that I can hold on to. I've shot digital, and its great, especially with complex lighting set-ups, where you don't have to wait for the polaroid to develop. Shoot, and there you go. But if I had a choice, I will shoot film. It will be digitized if its for a client anyhow. No one asks for prints anymore, unless they want it for display in the office, etc... Besides, there are tax laws if you hand something tangible, like film, or prints to a client. If you copy files to THEIR portable HD, you can get around the sales-tax issues in many cases. I know of many photogs who do this, b/c they can get a few thousand dollars more work by delivering digitally rather than by film or prints.
just my 2c
Dan
. I agree with the "people behind the counter sell the digital b/c it makes money". Plain and simple, it does....For every 2-3 rolls of film that I sold, I sold 1 ink cartridge. Also, a good deal of inkjet paper. I had the opportunity of meeting some terrific photographers, some of whom I have assisted, who still like what film gives them. One still uses it on jobs 75% of the time. She is no more that 120lbs dripping wet, but she lugs around an RZ67 all day long
. She told me that she shoots the d!g1+@l stuff for clients, so at the end of the day, they have something to look at on their laptops. She shoots the important, and final shots on Portra 160/400vc and 800 film. In regards to the "spiffs" mentioned on the 1st few pages of this thread, yes, many stores and manufacturers do give incentives to salespeople who sell their products. I got it when I sold the stuff. It paid for 2 new camera system this past year
. But really folks, the advertising world, and in a sense, the pro world is d!g1+tal now. You can start with film, but it gets digitized for printing and web use, catalog, etc...So the starting medium isn't really the concern for many people these days, but the time involved. Clients generally don't have 2-3 weeks before separations have to be made, they have to have files ready to send to the printer in a week or less from the end of the shoot. So speed is what has driven the shift.
I personally favor film for my personal work, because I like having something tangible that I can hold on to. I've shot digital, and its great, especially with complex lighting set-ups, where you don't have to wait for the polaroid to develop. Shoot, and there you go. But if I had a choice, I will shoot film. It will be digitized if its for a client anyhow. No one asks for prints anymore, unless they want it for display in the office, etc... Besides, there are tax laws if you hand something tangible, like film, or prints to a client. If you copy files to THEIR portable HD, you can get around the sales-tax issues in many cases. I know of many photogs who do this, b/c they can get a few thousand dollars more work by delivering digitally rather than by film or prints.
just my 2c
Dan
This happened to me when I went to apply at Brooks Institute. They have gone all digital. The person I talked to said that film was dead and that she didn't understand why I was using it.
My local camera store is fairly supportive and if they don't have the film I need, I can drive about 18 miles and go to a store that carries mostly film and used equipment.
The camera clubs around here are also supportive. One of the best things about shooting film is the people who have gone digital giving you film and equipment.
Every time I walk around with my Rollei, I get asked about it. I am 19 and most of my friends applaud my use of film. At the local colleges and among the art community film has high regard and people are blown away by my prints, which at the moment are scan and inkjet.I don't have my darkroom fully set up yet.
Kristoffer
Samys 805 is there, and they have terrific pricing on film processing, E6,B/W and c-41.
if you're looking at brooks, samys is there for your film processing. Don't let the dumb@ss counselor at brooks get you down, I've assisted alongside people who have graduated recently from brooks, and they still shoot film, sometimes for jobs too
. Brooks is pretty much all digital in their WORKFLOW. You can shoot film, but then sc@n it and work it digitally.Look at Art Center in Pasadena, they still use film religiously in a lot of the classes. Many of the teachers are "old school, get it right in the camera" types. That's why I want to go there
.don't let them get you down, both are good schools.
-Dan
Adapt
I have adapted, to the new reality. Fortunately I have an excellent pro-level faciltiy in my home area(Seattle). That said they are the only one, everything else has dried up. We cannot fault most suppliers as they are a business and if they can't sell film to make their money they must sell something else.
The "attitude" one experiences comes most often from ignorance. Most of the photo public out there has no experience with those of us who see photography as an artform. To them high art in photography is a pretty calendar.
When photgraphing recently in one of the local cathedrals here with my 5X7 I was very impressed at the level of acceptance I got from the general public. When I explain that I do it for art, I generally recieved "oh's" and "ah's" of approval. Never the digital question.
B&H is a great source and I would like to suggest Freestyle in Ca also.
I have adapted, to the new reality. Fortunately I have an excellent pro-level faciltiy in my home area(Seattle). That said they are the only one, everything else has dried up. We cannot fault most suppliers as they are a business and if they can't sell film to make their money they must sell something else.
The "attitude" one experiences comes most often from ignorance. Most of the photo public out there has no experience with those of us who see photography as an artform. To them high art in photography is a pretty calendar.
When photgraphing recently in one of the local cathedrals here with my 5X7 I was very impressed at the level of acceptance I got from the general public. When I explain that I do it for art, I generally recieved "oh's" and "ah's" of approval. Never the digital question.
B&H is a great source and I would like to suggest Freestyle in Ca also.
Paulie,
We cannot eliminate or overcome others ignorance. Send them a letter and tell them that your will no longer use them and have gone to Freestyle(online) for all your photo needs.
My local camera club is peculiar in this area.
At 36, I'm by far the youngest member who actually shows up regularly to the monthly meetings. I'd estimate the average age of the group is 15-20 years older, with many ladies and gentleman being in their late 60's and early 70's, making it a de facto seniors group.
Almost all of them have switched over to digital, or never shot film at all.
To my bemusement, I've become the aberration in the group that still shoots film and talks about it without seeming embarrassed. I find this hilarious not only because I'm effectively the kid of the group, but also because I'm by no means an exclusive film shooter. I own some nice digital gear and I use it. Nobody in the group is ever rude or dismissive of the fact I shoot film (least not to my face) but I can tell most are not sure what to make of me.
I never evangelize film, but my presence has had some effect. The group's leader, who currently shoots all-digital, is now considering getting a Mamiya 645 Super like mine to enhance his landscape work.
At 36, I'm by far the youngest member who actually shows up regularly to the monthly meetings. I'd estimate the average age of the group is 15-20 years older, with many ladies and gentleman being in their late 60's and early 70's, making it a de facto seniors group.
Almost all of them have switched over to digital, or never shot film at all.
To my bemusement, I've become the aberration in the group that still shoots film and talks about it without seeming embarrassed. I find this hilarious not only because I'm effectively the kid of the group, but also because I'm by no means an exclusive film shooter. I own some nice digital gear and I use it. Nobody in the group is ever rude or dismissive of the fact I shoot film (least not to my face) but I can tell most are not sure what to make of me.
I never evangelize film, but my presence has had some effect. The group's leader, who currently shoots all-digital, is now considering getting a Mamiya 645 Super like mine to enhance his landscape work.
Leighgion,
Good for you! When you start bringing in large prints that you have bleached the high lights and selenium toned, it will pop their eyes out.
Steve
Good for you! When you start bringing in large prints that you have bleached the high lights and selenium toned, it will pop their eyes out.
Steve
Good for you. Showing pride and explaining why film is a medium of choice usually helps. You're really going about it the right way, and I admire you patience.
Some people are so stuck up in their belief that just because they chose something it has to be superior. Empathy and imagination are qualities that are becoming more and more rare.
Good on ya.
- Thomas
Some people are so stuck up in their belief that just because they chose something it has to be superior. Empathy and imagination are qualities that are becoming more and more rare.
Good on ya.
- Thomas
I have just seen an advert offering to convert digital to film for printing in your own darkroom.
I wonder if the typical "camera/photo store" is any longer the right place to be selling "analogue" products? My theory is this stuff should be sold in art stores, the places that still sell canvas and oil paints and brushes etc - 170 years after the invention of photography sounded the death knell of painting. Certainly the market for B&W materials is likely confined now to the educational/hobbyist/fine-art segment not the consumer & pro market camera/photo store are mostly serving.
I am coming to this thread late, so my apologies if someone has already posted the information. Galaxy Photo and Henry's in Ottawa have film, paper and chemistry in stock, and will special order anything you need. I also buy paper and film from Rob Skeoch in Burlington (http://bigcameraworkshops.com/default2.asp), although he only has Ilford. These days, you have to stock up a little because no shops will have anything even slightly off the beaten path should you need it at the last minute.
I was raised in Ottawa, where my grandparents also lived, and it is a fine city. Don't freak out just because of Black's. They don't want your business anyway.
I was raised in Ottawa, where my grandparents also lived, and it is a fine city. Don't freak out just because of Black's. They don't want your business anyway.
I belong to a similar club. I am 19 and everyone else is 50+. Today, I had to fight to put one of my prints in competition. The sizes they wanted were 8 x 10 or 8 x 12, but I have been using my Rollei, and I enlarge to 8 x 8. Another man who shoots Hasselblad and had tried to get this changed before. we finally convinced them.
Digital shooters are bewildered by me because of my age but the artists of my generation are picking up film because it has a near cult following.
That's the ironic part though, Steve. There's one person in the club I know of who has a wet darkroom and... it's not me. I'm strictly hybrid right now, so there won't be any wet prints from me!
Thanks, Thomas, but you kind of misunderstand me.
I'm acting as I am not as a subtle and devious way to bring the other club members (back) around to film. Just at the point where I'm not into playing evangelist. I've chosen the way I'm doing my photography, respect other peoples' choice and expect them to do likewise. So far, it's worked out that way at the club.
If any kind of casual confidence I've shown has influenced other members of the local club, that wasn't specifically part of my designs.
off topic for sure, but couldyou start a thread with details?
having the ability to get a negative made INEXPENSIVELY from a computer file would be useful at times. I did here of someone in San Diego who wanted something like 20 bucks for that.
having the ability to get a negative made INEXPENSIVELY from a computer file would be useful at times. I did here of someone in San Diego who wanted something like 20 bucks for that.
Actually with their new owners Black's is now Cell Phones.
People who talk like that should simply be reminded of the actual total cost involved in digital.
There is the enormous hardware cost at the outset -- the bodies (which are obsolete, effectively, within 36 months), the computers and the software to run it all. This is measured in tens of thousands of dollars, if you're working at a professional level.
Then there is the ongoing costs, in both money and time. This is things like printing your images and working them in PS. And let's not forget to archive, and make multiple backups.
Did I mention all your methods will be obsolete in about 5 years? That means you get to do it all over again...and you can guess how many files that is with the 'spray and pray' approach inherent to digital.
Digital has its place, and film most assuredly has its place also. They're different places, but I don't hear people saying Paris is obsolete and horrible just because it's not New York.
To those who are fighting with stores that couldn't care less about you...why?
There are loads of places here in Canada alone that have the stock, expertise and desire to help you. SUPPORT THEM!
And let's not forget the great sponsors who support this site, either. Support them, too! You have tons of options, I can't imagine why you'd bang your head against a wall when you don't have to.
Register on Hybridphoto.com and look into digital negatives.
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colin + gerry
the people who are casual users
don't spend the $$ you are talking about,
and they don't really care much about devotion or suffering
they make snapshots. they use their cellphone or ds lite,
not a 10K camera!
i hate to say it, but that little d-thing is kind of a blessing in disguise.
it has elevated what we do to more of an art form ...
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let the sales clerk rant all s/he wants,
buy your stuff from a site sponsor
Funny thing, I was shooting my little niece some months ago with my Yashica Matt. She came running to me because she wanted to see the photo. I told her that is not possible I am using film. Her response: Huh film? what is that? Why is there no screen? And left totally confused.:confused:
About shops supporting film there are plenty around here where I live.
Hell all the photo stores in southwest Florida are gone. If you want anything you have to order by web or you are out of luck. I'm not to sure how the local schools and colleges get there stuff. but I know the local school requires there IB students to do B&W film the first year. something you don't even see in most photo schools anymore.
I was in my local pro dealers yesterday and looking into the glass fronted film fridge and seeing about five, five roll packs of each 120 Fuji 160S, Kodak Porta 160C, and about the same quantity and types of 35mm film, I asked "Is that all the film you have" the guy said "yes very few pros shoot film these days, we only keep that because we have one customer who still shoots it, "Make that two",I replied.
Maybe not where you are but I teach B&W darkroom evening classes here in Ottawa, currently twice a week to fully registered classes. That is at a school were the full time students also start in the darkroom and many of them stay with that alongside digital processes (Dead Link Removed).
The thing I have really noticed over the last five years is that the interest in film is increasingly from younger people than it used to be - by younger I mean 20-30 year olds. This is a group to whom the word digital prefacing camera is redundant.
I base this on my experience teaching evening classes and managing a photo club darkroom.
I tell them they can grind up their digital cameras into really fine dust and sprinkle the metallic flakes in still wet ink-jet ink to get that real silver look...LOL
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