Tired of film-users bashing

[Kino]

Besides the obvious economic aspects mentioned before, there are the consumers and self-styled technologists who have had the lemming-like rush to new technology, so firmly ingrained in their psyche that they almost have a nervous breakdown when they meet someone who doesn't react the same way.

You'd think you were killing puppies in the shopping mall or something equally heinous by not blindly throwing down your film gear and joining in ...

Treat those people like damage on the Internet; route around them, cut them out of the loop and move on -- not worth the effort.

Keep on shooting!

 

[srs5694]

The big auction site sells a lot of film cameras for prices that would have unheard of 10 years ago. Film camera prices seem to increasing which would indicate to me
a renewed interest.

Perhaps -- or perhaps most of the people who are inclined to sell their old gear on eBay (rather than let it rust on their shelves or send it to a landfill) have already done so. I prefer to believe your explanation, but the more pessimistic one is also possible.

Salemen have been telling half-truths for centuries. Carpe diem.

I think you mean "caveat emptor," but the very saying proves your point: It's Latin, a language that hasn't been in common use for centuries.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

try to convince me that digital is the only way now ... rough comments on the fact I use film ... arguing virulently that Kodachrome has been completely discontinued ...

They are trying to convince _themselves_ they have bought into the future. Folks like you who still shoot film make them feel insecure.

The issue of D Vs. F is bloody stupid. Who in their right mind cares? Usually the stupider the issue the higher tempers rise.

If you have to keep dealing with them, tell them they are right. Tell them they are wise chappies, ask them what camera they use, tell them it isn't good enough, not enough MP, not enough bits, not raw enough, they are behind the times, better catch up, world's passing them by ...

But it is probably best just to avoid them.

 

[Vonder]

Price

Wolfeye,

Just wondering, out of all your clients what was the main reason for them choosing digital over film?

I think it's price. I charge more for film due to film and developing costs, as well as the huge time investment of scanning. They don't seem to care about film's archival quality, nor the beauty of Portra films.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

To the last guy who said, "What! You're still using film?", I said, "Have you ever seen a cloudless sky in a B&W 20x24 print from a 4x5 negative...buttery smoooth", to which he hung his head and mumbled, "Well, yeah, there is that".

Hehehe

Murray

 

[kristopher_lawrence]

Thank you all for your answers...

Its great to get some support. I get really upset when someone tries to bash my form of art.

I express myself with photography, and film is part of it. By saying that film is dead, its like they are telling me that I won't be able to express myself soon. Its really annoying when someone refuse to respect the medium you use for your expression.

For color, I shoot Kodachrome or slides because I am a little bit of a colorblind. It's a real pain for me to adjust color on digital, so using slides, gives me the opporunity to be sure of the results I will get every time.

By the way, last week I traded my DSLR for a Leica 90mm 2.8 Elmarit-M current version. Never been so happy...

Long live film and film users!

Kris

 

[BrianShaw]

If those shops don't support you, then you don't have to support them.

I give them about 1.5 minutes to "make their case" then ask politely: "Well, do you have what I want to spend my money on, or not?" Usually they say "no" and I turn on my heels and leave. Not long ago the kid said "Ummm, no, but I have some film that has been sitting around and you can have it if you want it." That's the shop I'll be going to if I ever buy a digital camera!

 

[isaacc7]

It is not hard to see why the stores push digital. The digital camera makers give "spiffs" to the clerks for selling the merchandise. This amounts to a commission on each camera sold. They make more money by selling digital. This goes directly to the salesperson, not to the store, so those people are motivated.

negs.

Don't kid yourself, there were plenty of spiffs on film cameras too. It isn't a film/digital thing, it's a move the inventory thing. More often than not, spiffs offered by the manufacturer go directly to the store, not the employees. This is one of the tricks used by most online dealers to get the prices below "wholesale" prices. Unless the manufacturer jumps through some hoops, the salespeople usually don't see the money. Other times, the store will get most of the spiff and give the employee some of it...

But it isn't just the manufacturers that offer spiffs. The store will give spiffs on items that they are desperate to move and/or things that are highly profitable for the store.

For example, Tamron lenses had large spiffs on them (especially the superzooms) both because they were very profitable for the store and because there were significant discounts to be had for volume sales. The largest spiffs I ever got was with selling Canon EOS-1 series cameras and Contax compact cameras. Both of those were film, and in the case of the Contax, the spiff was there because digital had taken over that market. So there was every reason to try to sell the film camera, and I did...

The reason that stores and employees sell more digital stuff is because that is what most people like. Photo salesmen tend to be inherently lazy, so they sell what is easy. And take it from me, it is very easy to sell digital cameras. With the turnover at those places, I'm willing to believe that most of the sales force doesn't know anything about film or the cameras that use them. Add to that the almost complete lack of new film equipment to sell, and you're going to get some resistance to talking about film gear.

So, even though spiffs aren't "to blame" for the sales people not talking about film gear, the fact that they are trying to make money is. The vast majority of people do not want a film camera anymore. I love film, but I sold digital every day. For most people, a digital camera is the right thing for them and they certainly all came in wanting one. I would bring up film for the occasional customer that it would benefit, and I would even sell some sometimes because of it. I will keep saying this, customer demand is what drives digital sales, there is no conspiracy on the part of stores or the salesmen...

Isaac

 

[TheDreadPirateRobins]

The issue of D Vs. F is bloody stupid. Who in their right mind cares? Usually the stupider the issue the higher tempers rise.

I like to say, "the fights so vicious yet the stakes so small."

I won't go back to any shop where I feel I have been abused. They can suck wind for all I care. I am fortunate to have one store close to my house that comes down firmly on the film side (they have, I think, two digital cameras in the entire place). There's another shop nearer my office that is pretty firmly in the digital camp, but they have a walk-in refrigerator room with their film in it and they carry 35 mm, 120, and cut film (mostly 4x5 but some larger).

Many of the other shops were once purchased by Ritz Camera and they all became clones of one another. They are of very little use to the film photographer anymore, except that you might be able to get a new camera strap or a UV filter or something like that.

 

[isaacc7]

Thank you all for your answers...

Its great to get some support. I get really upset when someone tries to bash my form of art.



Kris

See, this frosts me. There should never be any bashing at any store from any employee. Whatever happened to professionalism? I had many conversations with people that I thought were crazy, dumb, misguided, whatever, but I never told them they were wrong. I was there to sell stuff. If the customer had some sort of need, I would find the product for them, no matter what I thought of their motives. It's the oldest thought in sales. What do you do if someone comes in and asks for product X? You ask how many they want and if it'll be cash, check, or credit... It's a little more involved than that of course, but sales doesn't have to be difficult, and it should NEVER be confrontational...

Isaac

 

[removed account4]

i don't really see what the problem is.
it is a store that wants to sell you something new, and that costs
more money than a few rolls of film. film or numeric camera, it doesn't matter,
the sales person / store gets a commission, selling just film they don't.

that is what sales people do, they talk fast, usually do their best to
"balloon the sale" ( you know ... "accessorize" ) ... SELL-SELL-SELL.

the beauty of it all is if you don't like what they have to sell, just go someplace else,
or buy off the internet, with no sales person at all

john

 

[nc5p]

I occasionally go to Kurt's or Camera and Darkroom. There are some clerks in both stores who are actually nice. They know I shoot both mediums, exclusively film for b&w, mostly digital for color. Surprisingly it's the college age clerks who are nice about it, the older ones and the managers are just plain rude. Once I took my Mamiya in there to buy a case. The young clerk was eagerly helping me select a good one, while the old guy was mocking me about my "dinosaur". If it weren't for their nice young clerks I would never go in either store again.

 

[PKM-25]

while the old guy was mocking me about my "dinosaur".

I had the same thing happen while looking for a 46mm lens cap for my 35 1.4 Summilux. I looked at the guy and said, "I shoot photographs for a living, what exactly is it that you do?"

He shut right up.

One of the main reasons I think that young people are more keen on film than expected is that they are quite frankly, tired as all get out at doing everything on a computer screen.

I own and use 11 camera bodies in three formats. Three of them are digital.

And I wrote the corporate offices of Black's this morning letting them know that Kodachrome is not only still in production, but Dwayne's does a phenomenal job at the K-14 process and to have their sales people go to the Kodachrome Project site for information.

And to qoute part of what I wrote:

"Now while I understand digital is still in hype stage and you probably have a better margin on it, don't go around saying that film is dead when quite a few of us truly dedicated professional photographers are using it and will be well after your chain might just have gone out of business."

 

[Paul Goutiere]

I was challenged by a middle aged chap sporting a great slob of a digital thing. He went on about shooting 4000+ pictures on a trip to Alaska and had done most of his stuff without a tripod or having to worry about
the dreary chores of having to focus for himself or set the aperture etc. He could then focus his attention on the image and not the operation of the camera. This was a far better thing than staying with dying film camera
technology. He told me he really liked new stuff, and continually upgraded his "tools". He went on a bit and began sounding a bit like some sort of odd evangelical minister.

I had my old F2 manufactured in 1971 on it's strap around my neck. I think this had somehow infuriated him.

I pointed out that taking 4000+ pictures is not really focusing attention on anything. I also suggested that by relying on all the automation in the digital camera he was not really part of the process of taking the picture but
more, he was allowing some design engineer in some far off camera factory to do the process for him. I also, gently, asked him to please leave me alone, I wanted to set up my tripod.

 

[Marco B]

One of the main reasons I think that young people are more keen on film than expected is that they are quite frankly, tired as all get out at doing everything on a computer screen.

Yup, I'm one of them, if I still may count myself to the group of "young ones" at the age of 36

Recently quitted a part time job as programmer, as I could no longer stand it...

I also think that many of the professional digital photographers will acquire RSI symptoms in the next 5 years or so... it just takes a few years of daily 8-hour computer work, like digital photo editing, to be hit hard.

 

[srs5694]

I had the same thing happen while looking for a 46mm lens cap for my 35 1.4 Summilux. I looked at the guy and said, "I shoot photographs for a living, what exactly is it that you do?"

To counter the parade of horror tales, here's one of mine: About three or four years ago, I walked into a tiny Ritz camera in a shopping mall with a Soviet-made Kristall slung around my neck. Like you, I wanted a lens cap. Two or three clerks were over me in a second admiring the camera. (They initially mistook it for something German.) Sadly, that store lacked a lens cap small enough for the tiny Industar-50 lens on the camera, but they certainly didn't dis it.

One of the main reasons I think that young people are more keen on film than expected is that they are quite frankly, tired as all get out at doing everything on a computer screen.

I'm 42, but that's part of my reason for sticking with film. I write about computers and do computer consulting for a living, so I like to get away from that for a bit.

 

[JBrunner]

What others think is irrelevant. Do what you do, and use the medium you choose because it is that way you choose to express, for your own reasons.

That fact that most of the other primates don't "get it" and want you to mimic their behavior and follow the methods that directly benefit them, simply tells you that they are exceedingly average, and utterly predictable. Don't waste your time, or as they say in the valley here, don't cast pearls before swine.

The reasonings of "the they" have absolutely nothing to do with your best interests. Art is selfish, and in most cases must be so, on a personal level.

 

[Frank Szabo]

What others think is irrelevant. Do what you do, and use the medium you choose because it is that way you choose to express, for your own reasons.

That fact that most of the other primates don't "get it" and want you to mimic their behavior and follow the methods that directly benefit them, simply tells you that they are exceedingly average, and utterly predictable. Don't waste your time, or as they say in the valley here, don't cast your pearls before swine.

The reasonings of "the they" have absolutely nothing to do with your best interests. Art is selfish, and in most cases must be so, on a personal level.

Agreed - The "They", as you rightfully refer to "them", want nothing more than an argument. Don't sully yourself by accommodating "them".

 

[Aurum]

I feel thankful that the local D&P shop I use does multiple formats and is actually interested in film. They usually argue over who gets to do the 120 stuff as it makes a change from the mundane C41 colour 35mm.

Cue the usual conversation when the wife picked up the first batch of 11 C41 colour 35's and a couple of rolls of my 120's, with geezer who had wandered in with an SD card

His face apparently dropped like a stone when he saw the picture quality you can get with a 20year old Lubitel that cost £20 new. He changed the subject totally when he saw what a 70 year old 6x9 ziess can do

TBH its the lure of the new. I remember when I first got a SLR, the top of the range SLR's with auto everything, and big lenses were the posers choice, and people with "Lesser" cameras such as Konicas, and Praktikas were looked down on. The posers didn't like the fact that although manufacturers like Nikon and Minolta made some nice bits of kit, the pictures they got weren't a patch on what the committed Praktika users were getting.
You can't buy skill.

Back on topic. If a store is rude and unhelpful, and obviously doesn't want your business, it would be churlish to refuse them in their dying wish

 

[kristopher_lawrence]

About younger generations

I am 25 and I feel that it is true that younger generations are more interested to film.

Most of the friends to whom I show analog imaging process are interested and they sometimes buy a film camera. By the way just take a look at the Voigtlander Bessa rangefinder, a lot, if not most, of its users are below 35...

When showing a slide on a projector, young persons are impressed because it is new to them. Film is old stuff for older folks, but for those of the digital age, it is really a different thing.

I was sadly the same with defunct polaroid, it is an amazing thing for younger photographers.

Its great to read everyone's comment, I feel that I am not alone anymore!

Kris

 

[gr82bart]

I took a friend of mine to Downtown Camera in Toronto, Canada last summer. She wanted to buy a Nikon F6 plus some accessories for it. This would have been a $3000 purchase at least. The idiotic, moronic, wingnut of a salesman (ask me how I really feel about that guy) tried to convince her and me that Nikon doesn't make any film cameras any more and even if they did why would she want to "waste that much money on a film camera" (he actually believed he was helping her!). When the other sales guys also jumped on the bandwagon, that really got us going. Pissed us off to no end. I have never walked into that store since and encourage all film shooters in Toronto not to bother as well. She eventually bought the camera online at B&H Photo in NYC. I am all for Canadian companies doing well, but I could care less if Downtown Camera went under.

Regards, Art.

 

[TheDreadPirateRobins]

One of the main reasons I think that young people are more keen on film than expected is that they are quite frankly, tired as all get out at doing everything on a computer screen.

Bingo!

I don't know if, at 34, I still count as young, but I spend a good chunk of my work week sitting in front of a computer, yet I still get the lecture sometimes how I need to "become more comfortable" with the technology by "spending some time on a computer."

How's roughly 2000 hours per year at work plus probably 700-800 at home each year?

I have no problem using Photoshop for manipulation and I have been using it since, oh, about 1991. I don't have a problem with working with Photoshop, except that I don't want to spend all my free time in front of a computer, and I rather enjoy the hands-on aspect of shooting manually with film and printing from negatives.

 

[Pinholemaster]

"Ottawa is bad for ALL of Canada. !!"

Now that's funny 'cause I thought that Washington DC is bad for ALL the world. Grin.

But seriously, GET OVER IT. No one is bashing anything if YOU don't let them get to you. Life is too short to worry about what one store is doing. Take your money elsewhere.

There are plenty of stores (through their on-line presence) that will gladly help you.

Wipe the dust from your shoes and walk out.

 

[Vonder]

LOL!

I saw what the "digital film" markup was today in my local store. Went there to test a used lens, brought a DSLR but forgot a CF card. So I thought about buying one there. Yeah, right. The same 2gb card that Adorama sells for $25, these guys sell for $50.

 

[CBG]

Use whatever you want and to hell with the idiots. They evidently can't see past the latest trend. The same "wisdom of the herd" that disses film also pursuaded lots of folks to buy millions of huge SUVs that are now dropping in value faster than real estate. If Bob bought one, I should too?

C