Tips from the Darkroom

Thankyou Bob for clearing that up for me,in the past I have used a softer contrast filter or flashing to burn in highlights for detail I will try your method and some blasting and make an explosive print.

Mike

Mick Fagan said:

Brilliant.

However I'll go on using my foot switch, just love them. Agree though that working with colour, sometimes the foot switch can be lost in the dark

Mick.

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I have a piece of reflective tape on my foot switch. I love to have both hands free.

Yes it is

Vilk said:

My mug was grinning wider and wider as I was reading through the list--with the exception of a few advanced details, I could see myself as in a mirror. I only wish my results were more mirror-like...



By the way, is the current Nowaczynski exhibit at the ROM your work? Mr. Carnie, my hat goes off to you! Great stuff, I'm going back to have another look... And then another.

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Good list Bob. I have found that the individual threading within forums of specific techniques, good though they may be, to be lacking in overall comprehension for beginners. Like you, I have also made attempts at coalescing analog information – within articles on my own site, occasionally referenced in forum contributions. I would be thrilled to see a video of your practices to accompany the list, preferably before I feel compelled to make my own!

Although our circumstances and specifics differ (I love my footswitch ), I cannot agree more with your overall admonition that there is no such thing as a "perfect" print. Upon viewing an original Adams print many years ago, riddled with white specks left un-spotted, I was finally cured once and for all of the insanity of attempting to make a perfect print. I have never made a perfect print, but nothing less than the "p" word has ever been attributed to my work at any showing – viewers and grain sniffers alike. The classic analog process produces individual variation characteristic of an "artistic" endeavor. Perhaps, it is this fact alone which separates analog (uniquely, hand-made) from digital (machine-made) prints.

Book by Carnie

I'd buy a darkroom printing book by Bob Carnie.

Thanks Bob, the one that rings home for me is that there is no perfect print. I used to and still do sometimes print myself around in circles, changing things and changing things. I believe you could always change something after each print, but then the next thing you know your paper stash is disappearing.

Book by Nicole

Nicole said:

I'd buy a darkroom printing book by Bob Carnie.

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Agreed, as long as there was a portraiture book by Nicole on the same shelf.

Toffle said:

Agreed, as long as there was a portraiture book by Nicole on the same shelf.

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I'm working on it...

I have seen Bob's prints, and they are truly magnificent.

Based on the list in the original post, I know that I could learn a lot from Bob; but i also know that from having conversations with him. It brings respect to print the size pictures he does consistently and beautifully!

Printing to me is all about exploring, and as we learn more our ways in the darkroom seem to become our own more and more. It's pretty amazing how many ways the same thing can be done, even if it is to varying degree of success.

Reading through the list, it is also funny to think about my own process, how I go about it, and it is striking how similar my method is. I don't use test strips, I use full sheets of paper. I usually end up making one too dark and one too bright, and then I cherry pick the best of both worlds, and that teaches me a lot about how I wish to dodge and burn, and at what contrast.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Bob! I really want to come and hang out with you in the darkroom some time.

- Thomas

Thomas Bertilsson said:

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Bob! I really want to come and hang out with you in the darkroom some time.

- Thomas

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Just don't fall for his famous "here smell this rag" trick!

Dinesh said:

Just don't fall for his famous "here smell this rag" trick!

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Appreciate the advice... Have you found any bodies in the storage room?

After a dismal evening in the darkroom tonight, I think I had better print this list and tack it to my wall right beside Ralph's f-stop printing table.

Nicole said:

I'd buy a darkroom printing book by Bob Carnie.

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I'm waiting for the DVD or the TV series...

Robin Bell, move over ;-)

Hi Bob,

I took a couple months off from printing in my darkroom because I was just getting too frustrated. Things weren't coming out the way I saw them in my head. I found this thread the night before I finally went back in there and it helped immensely! Especially the grade 5 "blasting" and the outflanking really helped.

It's amazing the difference between a print that you're 95% happy with and one that you're 100% happy with. That's a BIG 5%!

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing your knowledge!

Chris

P.S. I'll never give up my foot switch!

Hi Bob,

I recently stumbled across this thread from back in March this year. It was a very interesting read and I really appreciated your post.

I have quite a number of questions that if you have the chance to answer sometime, I would be most grateful.

* "I use an outflanking method": Do you mean you go beyond the correct point (contrast, exposure, etc) and then pull back to get to the correct value?
* "I am very concerned about the negative position above the lens": I wasn't sure what you meant by this?
* "I study the negative before printing. I study the easel before printing": What are you looking for?
* "I use ducks ass and ducks bill a lot": This was very interesting! Do you have any pointers to where I could read/see more?
* "I look at a print no more than 1 minute and move to next exposure": I find with my printing I need to do the best "working" prints I can, go away and look at them a week or so later and then come back to the darkroom to do the final prints. Is this unusual?
* "I do not like the 0 and 5 method only": How do you decide which filter to use for your "white" time? Is this where you mention lower down in the post that you "settle on a lower than normal tone for your tastes and as well lighter than normal". If I am reading this correctly, you try to get to 3/4 of desired tone with your main exposure on the selected filter and then blast with the 5 to get the remaining tone with desired contrast.
* "I like to give a final edge burn to all my prints": Do you burn all edges? How much exposure do you give and with which filter?
* "I like to tone the same day as I print": Do you have a "standard" toning routine?
* "7. If there is a spot that is too bright then I will burn with 00 to bring in detail ( I always use the 5 filter as well to burn in highlights.. ask me why... soft light.(Les Mclean)": When do you burn with the 00 and when with the 5? I wasn't sure I understood the quote from Les?

Once again, thank you for your post.


Kind regards,

Ged

Hi Ged

sorry for taking so long, here goes.

1. outflanking method is when you do not creep up on a print density or contrast , but make bold adjustments. If you go too far you are still seeing good information and can apply what you see once you have achieved a proper starting density, MAS describes this very well , not sure where to find the info, and this method is practiced by most printers I know who do gallery work.
Test strips are ok and I will not poo poo them here but there is a lot of info in a dark or light print and many surprises to be found.. Also over time you will be much faster in finding your balance.
2. having the negative directly centered to the easel , lens, light source is critical . they should all be in a direct line to maximise edge sharpness..
3. Ok studying the negative , studying the easel with the image projected, and also studying the print as it develops, trains you to understand how your negative will print. by looking you start to gain a history of how this whole thing works. I now establish my starting points for density and contrast filter by looking at the negative on a light box. By looking at the projected image I see where my dodge and burns will be needed, and in the developer I verify my thought process, so after fix I can flip on the lights and make a very quick assessment of the whole print process and move on.
I am looking at density and how it looks in negative for so that when I see it in a positive form I understand better where dodging and burning make a difference.
4.Ducks ass is the wide bottom of the print where some traditional printers like myself lay down a base density that is much like the shape of a ducks ass. This is done by burning in with your hands and cupping your hands in a more round shape.
Ducks bill is the narrow top of a print where we curve in density around lets say a persons head, this shape is more pointed.
put your hands in front of you and cup your fingers together and make shapes, a more rounded shape is the ducks ass and I use this shape on the bottom of most prints.
a more pointed shape is the ducks bill and I use this to hold back someone's head and burn the corner.. Also you are moving your fingers when you do this so that there are no obvious burn lines as well as moving your hand up and down.
5.How to decide to evaluate prints is probably different with each person. I print often and usually for show or portfolio and once I have established a look I go for it.
if you follow my drift above about evaluating the scene, negative, easel and developing emergence , gets you 90% of the way there so you need only to verify your direction and move on with a simple flick of the lights and some observation.
This is the way I work and I do understand there are the crowd who need microwaves , Good Wine, Mozart and five days to analyze, I just like to make prints.
6.You nailed the way I work with the filters , I try to get a slightly lighter and lower contrast print with the first filter, and it can vary, then I use the 5 for contrast and setting deep blacks .
7. Not always I only burn edges if they are required, this is always dependent on the image, but due to edge fall off on the larger sizes I am forced to do so most times. Old school methods were to draw the eye into the middle of the image which was done by darkening edges.
8.Yes I do , for Ilford warmtone I prefer a Selenium 1:5 for 45 seconds... for coldtone papers I like a bleach sepia and then selenium where a slight warm tone in the highlights and selenium in shadows.
9.If I am burning in a hot spot with detail I will use the 00 to bring in tone and the 5 filter to darken any black areas in the highlight which has the effect of local contrast increase in the highlight as well as creating tone...

I hope this helps and thanks for asking.

Bob

ged said:

Hi Bob,

I recently stumbled across this thread from back in March this year. It was a very interesting read and I really appreciated your post.

I have quite a number of questions that if you have the chance to answer sometime, I would be most grateful.

* "I use an outflanking method": Do you mean you go beyond the correct point (contrast, exposure, etc) and then pull back to get to the correct value?
* "I am very concerned about the negative position above the lens": I wasn't sure what you meant by this?
* "I study the negative before printing. I study the easel before printing": What are you looking for?
* "I use ducks ass and ducks bill a lot": This was very interesting! Do you have any pointers to where I could read/see more?
* "I look at a print no more than 1 minute and move to next exposure": I find with my printing I need to do the best "working" prints I can, go away and look at them a week or so later and then come back to the darkroom to do the final prints. Is this unusual?
* "I do not like the 0 and 5 method only": How do you decide which filter to use for your "white" time? Is this where you mention lower down in the post that you "settle on a lower than normal tone for your tastes and as well lighter than normal". If I am reading this correctly, you try to get to 3/4 of desired tone with your main exposure on the selected filter and then blast with the 5 to get the remaining tone with desired contrast.
* "I like to give a final edge burn to all my prints": Do you burn all edges? How much exposure do you give and with which filter?
* "I like to tone the same day as I print": Do you have a "standard" toning routine?
* "7. If there is a spot that is too bright then I will burn with 00 to bring in detail ( I always use the 5 filter as well to burn in highlights.. ask me why... soft light.(Les Mclean)": When do you burn with the 00 and when with the 5? I wasn't sure I understood the quote from Les?

Once again, thank you for your post.


Kind regards,

Ged

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First time seeing this thread Bob, it's a real treasure to be able to compare my own darkroom habits with what you are doing----very enlightening, thanks.

Great thread, Bob! Many things to think about and learn from.

I concur with the "lith printing is all about pulling the print when the blacks look good" idea. Get the blacks and the rest will follow.

thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. Maybe it is a stupid question but who or what is "MAS"?

Kind regards

Harry

If you go too far you are still seeing good information and can apply what you see once you have achieved a proper starting density, MAS describes this very well , not sure where to find the info, and this method is practiced by most printers I know who do gallery work.

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Thank's for the informaive post, lots of pointers to take with me into the dark =)

Hi Bob. looks like we have the 99,9% same workflow and the way of seeing how we like the job done. But i was curious about one thing: "...for coldtone papers I like a bleach sepia and then selenium where a slight warm tone in the highlights and selenium in shadows...."

Do you bleach 100% and the sepiatone for lets say 40% of required time for sepia toning and then jump the print over to a Selenium tone bath? I use mostly selenium alone in 1:20 rate for 5 minutes or 20 if i want tonechange.

eselmarvin said:

thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. Maybe it is a stupid question but who or what is "MAS"?

Kind regards

Harry

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MAS is most likely: Michael A. Smith: http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/index_skip.html

Hi Bob,

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such detail! There's lots of good advice in there that will keep me busy in the darkroom trying new things for the next few month...


Kind regards,

Ged

Bleach is as follows

Potassium Ferri- 32grams
Postasium Bromide - 32 grams
12 litres of water.

I will use this basic starting point- for Ilford Warmtone anywhere from 5 seconds to 1minute depending on the look I want.

Sodium Sulphide- 32 grams
12 litres of water

Immerse the print into the sulphide(stinky stuff) for 30secs to 1 minute.

Thanks to Bill Schwab on this one.... if the tone is not to my liking I will re bleach and build up the brown tone. I watched Bill doing this after a long day in my darkroom, making some murals. I thought he was crazy but once started is an amazing way of building up sepia tone to exactly where you want to be.


If I want a duo tone then I will mix up the Selenium.
I use: Selenium 1 : 5 and I will vary the papers to suit my desired look. I stopped using a weak dilution of 1:20 twenty years ago, as you can tell by this thread, I like working fast.


MAS - is Michael A Smith who wrote a nice article in the 90's about outflanking when printing, which is a method I was taught and I believe most professional printers use.


Cold tone papers generally require more bleach to get my look. I prefer cold tone papers for this particular look. (for Russell Monk series we used Ilford Warmtone,my favourite paper The bleach time was 5 seconds no more and the prints started to get too warm.
I only go full on sepia for one current client and I am not a really big fan of a full sepia toned print, I prefer a split where the highlights tone yellow and the shadows that tone cooler.
I always give a 20 minute soak in water after sepia toning before I go into the selenium or other toners.

It appears some of us here like to sepia first then selenium(me) and others prefer to selenium first.

I will never bleach and then selenium without fixing and washing the print between the steps, and I cannot explain the theory behind this.

DarkMagic said:

Hi Bob. looks like we have the 99,9% same workflow and the way of seeing how we like the job done. But i was curious about one thing: "...for coldtone papers I like a bleach sepia and then selenium where a slight warm tone in the highlights and selenium in shadows...."

Do you bleach 100% and the sepiatone for lets say 40% of required time for sepia toning and then jump the print over to a Selenium tone bath? I use mostly selenium alone in 1:20 rate for 5 minutes or 20 if i want tonechange.

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Bravo!!!