Tips for white flowers against green foliage?

[villagephotog]

It's mountain laurel season in New York, and I'm looking for tips and hints from those with experience shooting white flowers against green leaves on B&W. My goal is to keep the green from rendering too light a shade of gray, so I can retain nice separation between the flowers and surrounding greenery.

What filters, if any, could help here? I know the color theory, which would suggest that a magenta filter would cut the green transmission and render the leaves darker, but I haven't seen examples of anyone doing that. Anyone ever tried it? How about red or orange filters for this?

Second thing I wondered is if there is a film known for lower sensitivity in the green spectrum. Anything like that? Absent any better advice, I'll probably shoot with Ilford HP5+.

Any hints from those with more experience with this kind of subject would be appreciated!

[Here's a close-ish example of the flowers and leaves I'm talking about:]

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I wouldn't bother with a filter. But to darken green you could use an orange or light red filter... But then you run the risk of losing the red bits inside the flower... They'll be lightened.

 

[cramej]

I wouldn't bother with a filter. But to darken green you could use an orange or light red filter... But then you run the risk of losing the red bits inside the flower... They'll be lightened.

^ This.

 

[wiltw]

If you look closely, you can see that the reflectance of light off the surface of the leaves is what brightens the leaves, so use of a Polarizer can be useful for reduction of the reflectivity, effoective increasing the contrast between the leaves and the white flowers.

 

[eddie]

I don't know if you're doing your own wet printing, but hand painting will give you complete control of separation, and color. Other than that, I agree with Andrew.
The left side of the thumbnail has been painted, the right is the original B&W:

 

[wiltw]

I simulated removal of reflectance off leaf surfaces...

 

[Ces1um]

I don't know if you're doing your own wet printing, but hand painting will give you complete control of separation, and color. Other than that, I agree with Andrew.
The left side of the thumbnail has been painted, the right is the original B&W:

That looks phenomenal! Looks like it takes serious skill and time though.

 

[pentaxuser]

I simulated removal of reflectance off leaf surfaces...

That's a real improvement in my book to the both the leaves and especially the flowers but can in fact a polariser produce this effect as well. I just don't use a polariser often enough to know the answer

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[eddie]

That looks phenomenal! Looks like it takes serious skill and time though.

It takes a bit of time, but the learning curve is short.

 

[wiltw]

That's a real improvement in my book to the both the leaves and especially the flowers but can in fact a polariser produce this effect as well. I just don't use a polariser often enough to know the answer

Thanks

pentaxuser

I don't have examples of removal of reflections from leaves, but I can show the removal of reflection off a plane of glass via polarizer

I will admit that this comparison is not perfect...the density of the vertical support on the stair is not the same for both shots. But the real point is reflection removal.

 

[wiltw]

OK, I just shot this comparison, same camera location and FL, exposure suitably changed for non-use vs. use of circular polariser.
Note the substantial reduction of leaf surface reflectivity on the shot on the right.

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Of course, the angle of the leaf to the sun alters its reflection angle, and so the polarizer is much more effective on some leaves, and less effective on others.

 

[foc]

As has been mentioned, I don't think you need coloured filters, maybe a polariser at the most.
I think you should concentrate on getting your lighting right and then your exposure.

This is the original photo posted by the OP, converted into B&W so it might be easier to judge.

This is the image by wiltw so you can compare. (if you shoot HP5+ as you suggested)

Flat lighting will be low in contrast and can look dull. Maybe try side lighting, it can add some texture to the image. This could mean you have to move about and change your position as you compose your shot. A reflector could be used to control/lighten dense shadows or block direct a direct sunlight hotspot.

Maybe practice at home, with a similar type of plant/shrub, just looking through the camera (not taking any photos) and see how you can change your lighting and influence your image.

For exposure, ideally, you should take an incident light reading but if you don't have that type of meter then maybe use an 18% gray card or use the palm of your hand and take your reading from that.

Will you scan the film or make wet prints?

 

[pentaxuser]

I take it that the polariser effect on the colour photo in terms of its effect will translate into the same effect in b&was it is in b&w that the OP will be taking the pic?

pentaxuser

 

[wiltw]

That looks phenomenal! Looks like it takes serious skill and time though.

Serious skill?! Put on the polarizer, rotate it until reflections disappear, meter and shoot

What I simulated was done as two adjustments in Lightroom..

1. Reduce Highlight level
2. Increase Shadow level
3. Adjust overall Exposure to look good

...only a few seconds effort!

 

[wiltw]

I take it that the polariser effect on the colour photo in terms of its effect will translate into the same effect in b&was it is in b&w that the OP will be taking the pic?

pentaxuser

Removal of poarized light reflected off surfaces knows no difference...a reduction in intensity of brightness of reflections, and ability to better see the underlying surface detail which is obscurred by shiny surface reflection.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I don't know if you're doing your own wet printing, but hand painting will give you complete control of separation, and color. Other than that, I agree with Andrew.
The left side of the thumbnail has been painted, the right is the original B&W:

That looks so rich, eddie. Really like it! I've been putting it off for way too long. I'm going to give hand colouring a go. I've got some ideas for IR images printed as kallitypes and cyanotypes. I'll probably just go with water colours, as I've got heaps on hand.

 

[villagephotog]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. It's much appreciated. I may do a couple side-by-side tests with and without filters just to see what I think. The example I uploaded is a little misleading -- it's not an example of the kind of picture I'm trying to take. It's just a smartphone snapshot that I took to record the flower petals for my gardening girlfriend.

I don't know if you're doing your own wet printing, but hand painting will give you complete control of separation, and color.

Very cool. Maybe someday .

Since a couple of people asked -- I'm not doing my own wet printing. I'll be scanning the negatives, and, if I make a print, it will be a digital print. I won't go further on that in what is supposed to be an analog-only forum, but I have the proverbial 10,000 hours in Photoshop and know what I can accomplish with it.

If you look closely, you can see that the reflectance of light off the surface of the leaves is what brightens the leaves ...

Good hint, wiltw, and one I hadn't thought of in this context. I'll give a polarizer a try, too.