Tips for going from daylight tanks to large dip & dunk tanks

[GraemeMitchell]

I'm contemplating a switch from SS daylight tanks I've been using to dip&dunk tank w/ racks. I have a good work flow w/ hand tanks, and at this point get clean film, but the hand tank's limit, of course, is the quantity that can be run in a batch. I'm bringing this up here b/c if I make a switch, I'd really appreciate to hear from those that have done the same, or who work w/ larger tanks. Both as far as equipment that works, and also processes differences so I don't have to relearn the voodoo of getting clean film.

Right now I use 8 reel SS tanks, running 6 up 35mm or 3 up 120. It works well, but is excruciatingly slow w/ that capacity if I shoot much film.

The large tanks I have my eyes on are the Arkay 81-8R (2 gallon) w/ the arkay 81-8rr rack (holds 18 up 35mm or 9 up 120). It seems like a nice compromise btwn size of batched and amount of chemicals.

Anyone here use this set up or something similar? If so how you have it set up, how many tanks, etc. I'd guess 3 tanks. Dev, fix, hypo. For presoak and rinses after dev and fix I haven't figured out; maybe rubbermade tubs (I don't have running water in this room, so that water has to be set)

I tend to use developers as one shot, but they're diluted liquid developers, so I don't mind mixing two gallon batches at the time. I'd imagine I'd store my fixer and hypo in 1 gallon jugs so I could water bath it to temp in a sink before...as I don't have $ or space for a water sleeve for the SS tanks. So I'd break down and set up the line as needed, for now.

Also, I'm curious about, w/ a rack that big and reels, how different agitation is. I know the procedure for sheet film on racks, lift and tilt. Same w/ racks?

Would love to hear experiences. My fear is that in solving the problem of efficiency I'm going to create 25 new problems in procedure/quality.

Thanks in advance.

 

[MartinP]

I'd suggest you really need to put the tanks in a big sink (or equivalent) in order to have any chance of controlling the temperature during the development period, especially if the tanks are steel, or possibly have some sort of hot/cold temperature regulation for the whole room.

Twenty years ago I used plastic tanks (dev, stop, fix, wash) in a deep plastic sink which warmed up within an hour or so every morning and stayed at the right temperature all the working day by means of tempered water in the sink, hot to start then at 20C after the temperature was achieved. The racks were stainless and indeed, we used lift, tilt (in different directions), return for agitation without problems. The developer was replenished D76 and stayed working in the tanks for many months, with floating lids on all the chemicals and test-strips to control the dev activity.

 

[GraemeMitchell]

There's def no temp regulation in the room, winter temps are around 70, summer mid to high 80s. I run my film at 72 degrees.

If I mix the developer at each go, and don't replenish, then that temp is taken care of. Then there's just the fix and hypo, which I figured I could get within in a few degrees w/ a water bath before I begin. Basically what I'm doing now w/ hand tanks, just on a larger scale. If the room temp is way off, I could, depending on the size of those arkay tanks, put them in a plastic storage bin or something w/ a water bath. But it'd have to be adjusted by hand, b/c again, no running water in the room windowless room. That would at least slow temp drift.

Also my dev times rarely exceed 14 or 15 min, and are more often btwn 5-10 min...so that helps too in limiting temp drift.

 

[GraemeMitchell]

Actually, just had a friend over and he said building a wall out to seal my sink are wouldn't be difficult. So let's assume then I have water, and a deep utility sink, measuring about 18x18" at the base.

 

[MartinP]

I should have asked, how big are the cages you will be putting the film in ? That sort of gives the size of everything else I suppose ! If the developer-tank sits in the sink (therebye taking care of the trickiest temperature maintenance), then you could use a plastic storage-box to hold the stop-tank and fix-tank, to catch the drips from agitation. You could swap out the dev-tank from the sink for a wash-tank while the film was nearly finished fixing and the system could be quite workable.

The lab I worked in isn't comparable to home stuff (especially in my current darkroom/spare-bedroom which, like yours, also has no water or drain) and 'my' sink at work was around 6'x20" then 18" deep. Realistically not practical without a dedicated darkroom setup.

When you say "hypo" do you mean fixer-eliminator ? I'd just use rapid-fixer and tempered water for clearing/washing film - keeping it simple. It would be useful for fibre-papers though.

 

[GraemeMitchell]

These are the cages: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...349_81_8RR_Stainless_Steel_Reel.html#features

Basically looks like the tank to fit them measures 4.5x10.5x10.5." I think it's on a small enough level that it would be manageable.

You're right though, I could get rid of hypo if I also purchased the washing tank that fits this rack. Which I guess would be smart regardless.

W/ these tanks, do people usually use the final wash tank also for the rinse btwn dev and fix?

Anyway, guess I should buy some stuff and figure out a system that works in my space. I expect some hiccups, just wanted to avoid big ones. (I do, fwiw, a smaller variation of this w/ 4x5 in little plastic tanks using the HP Combi film holders, and always had good results w/ it.)

 

[largeformat pat]

Why not extend your reels on to a core like the paterson or jobo system. Then use round tubes to hold your chemicals. PVC plumbers pipe. Say a couple (or more) for each step. Then get a large plastic tub as a water bath. Then get a sheet of ply, cut holes to suit your tubes and place it on top. You only then fill the tubes you need to use and I would then have a clamp to hold the cores together. Lift one handle and all your spirals come out, for agitation or removal. Pm me if you wish to work this solution.
Pat

 

[df cardwell]

Graeme, I'm guessing you can find some good deals on steel stuff in NYC !

This is an easy, consistent and very fine way to soup film.
(I've only done it 30 years, so far, but I KNOW there are some experienced guys out there --- Calling Dr. Carnie !)


• Running (9) 120 steel reels in a basket is child's play.

• Why Pre-Soak ?

• Aim for a development time of 8 to 16 minutes.

• Developer / Stop / Fix / Wash
I like FX-4 in my sink line: fast, high capacity, fast wash.

•• Kodak's directions for tank agitation:

Large-Tank Processing (1/2- to 3 1/2-gallon tank)—Rolls and Sheets

Agitate continuously for the first 15 to 30 seconds by raising
and lowering the basket, rack, or spindle 1/2-inch. Do not
agitate the basket, rack, or spindle for the remainder of the
first minute. Then agitate once per minute by lifting the
basket, rack, or spindle out of the developer, tilting it
approximately 30 degrees, draining it for 5 to 10 seconds,
and reimmersing it. Alternate the direction of tilting the
basket, rack, or spindle.


.

 

[gordrob]

The system that I have allows you to process 4 - 8x10 hangers or equivalents or 9 - 120 reels or 15 - 35mm reels in a basket.
The tanks are plastic with lids, 5" x 13" x 12" and take just over 5 L of chemistry. I have 4 tanks so I have one for washing in line. All 4 baskets fit into a area 16" x 20". The cage has a K stamped on it and is made in Germany so it is probably a Kindermann unit.

I follow the same method for processing outlined above with no pre-wash.

Gord

 

[GraemeMitchell]

DF, I only pre-wash b/c I found w/ hc-110 at times btwn 5-6 minutes, which is common with my E.I. and TX, that I was getting uneven development. A 1 min pre-wash completely took care of that. I don't mind it.

 

[Ronald Moravec]

You need two or three 8 reel tanks, two lift rods and a dark room.

load 8 reels, start to develope, while that is happening load the second tank of 8, move the first to fix, no stop or water, load 8 more, start another batch. Keep going until you are done. Change developer after each run.

Agitation ince every 60 sec, lift 3/4", twist 90 deg , twist back, lower. Repeat 1 time additional. Two lifts every 60 sec.

My mentor used to do between 100 and 150 rolls a week for his wedding business, 8 rolls per wedding, multiple photogs. I have seen the 50 year old prints and they look good to this day.

He used a modified stand agitation with thirty sec on immersion, 15 sec at halfway. I could never master that without streaks. Plus x D76 1:1 7 min.

The theory being you are loading while some are developing and the process is continuous.

With a big tank, you will spend tons of time loading reels and trading that for one big developing run.

 

[GraemeMitchell]

Great info guys. It sounds like people who run film this way stand by it as a good way to process.

I'm gonna get it going, and will try to remember in the next couple of weeks to come back w/ my findings.

Those kodak agitation notes above are helpful. I would have over agitated in the first min for sure having just gone at it on my own.

 

[GraemeMitchell]

I wanted to come back and give an update to this. I now have a 3.5 gallon tank line going. So I can run 30 up 35mm or 18 120. It is fantastic. It is fast. It is easy. Takes a moment to get used to the agitation, but it makes sense after the first few dip and dunks. Firm grip, gentle movements.

Temperature control so far hasn't been a problem, b/c ambient is about perfect. When summer comes it will be a bit trickier, but I imagine it'll just be a water bath and working a bit hotter and more quickly.

The hardest part really has been dealing with the larger quantities of chemicals and switching developers to a replenished one.

It's hard to explain my enthusiasm that I just ran 50 rolls of film in 2 hrs.

 

[CBG]

My apologies to anyone subjected in the past to my rant on the importance of not misnaming sulfite wash aids like Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent.

Hypo is a venerable term for fixer.
Fix = hypo.

But,
hypo≠ hypo clearing agent.

Wash aids, like Kodak's Hypo Clearing Agent, like Permawash, and many others are different. They help in the wash process. They get rid of the fix or hypo. If you want to abbreviate it, many people generically use the term HCA. Such wash aids make the hypo easier to remove from fiber paper especially, but can shorten wash times and help with removal of fix and fixing by-products.

So, the basic film process sequence is: develop, stop(or rinse), fix, rinse, wash aid, wash...

OK, I'm over that....

You could cobble together a tempering bath with as little as pretty basic carpentry and some caulk. Epoxy would upgrade that basic structure and make it more permanent. Just remember that a big bath of water is verrrry heavy and wants to crush any weak structure under it, and that it wants to pot the sides out through hydraulic pressure. Build beefy and reinforce sides against lateral pressure. There's no reason you can't have a durable and commercially practical tempering bath for under two hundred dollars or so.