Time to set up my first Darkroom...

[Cromlech]

Hi everyone,

I have been shooting a lot of film lately. I have 8 rolls in the fridge currently. Anyways, It's getting to the point of being ridiculous "paying" someone else to develop my film for me, when I can do it myself. I mainly shoot black and white... I'll bite the bullet this time and get them developed this week, but after that, no more. I CAN do it myself.

My question is mainly this:
What is a good line of BEGINNER'S chemicals? I plan to shop using Freestyle, unless someone else can suggest east-coast companies with competitive pricing. More Background information: I will be using my front kitchen's counter top and stainless steel sink. To load the film onto the reel, I will be using a changing/dark bag. From there, i'll be doing everything else you could normally do in the light.

I just need help with WHAT chemicals to use, that are at a decent price, that store well. I will be going to college this spring, and I will be out of work for those few months until the summer, or possibly longer. So I want to get my stock up there, as high as I can.

Thank you for reading,
Richard

EDIT: I do not plan to do any dry work, all I want to do is scan my negatives and possibly print them myself on an inkjet printer with photo paper.

 

[spolly74]

I'm fairly early on in the process myself, so I think my perspective might be a bit different than some folks here. I like the Kodak line for a couple of different reasons.

1) Their documentation is really good, which helps when you're trying to figure things out.
2) they are fairly cheap (especially if you get the powder) which is good for making mistakes.
3) You can get them pretty much anywhere.

4)They are safe with minimal precautions. I'd like to try Rodinal one day, but phrases like "caustic burns" scare me off a bit.

My recommendation, for what its worth, is to go basic with something like D76 1:1. I use the normal indicator stop bath (also good for paper), and the basic Fixer that is also good for paper and film (different dilutions though). One strong positive is that every film I've used has processing times for D76.

Having said that, you will no doubt get a lot of excellent suggestions.

 

[holmburgers]

Hey Richard,

YOU CAN DO IT!

You're making the right call. You'll save money and it's honestly quite easy. The biggest hurdle for me was loading film onto stainless steel reels. If you choose to go plastic, it's pretty easy. A good pair of SS reels will make all the difference as well, I have learned.

The other thing is loading in a changing bag might be tricky, but I've never tried it. If there's a bathroom or closet that you can light-tight, that would be better, but where there's a will there's usually a way.

I've started loading my reels and rubber banding the tanks shut. That way, I can develop them in room light at my leisure without the preliminary loading. It doesn't really make a difference in the total time spent, but somehow it was liberating when I realized that I could just load them and let them sit for a day, or a week, or MONTH if I felt like it.

Many will suggest Ilford as a complete product line, many will suggest others; it all depends on price, and what you want; liquid or powder, etc.

All of it works, and it's just up to preference. For someone like myself, HC-110 is very convenient as a developer. Photo formulary has some custom formulation stuff that is very good as well.

Good luck!

P.S. IMO, Ilford is much more beginner friendly than Kodak in terms of documentation. spolly74, you must be kinder than I, because I think Kodak's documentation is generally horrible; but it all depends on which product I guess.

Oh, and lastly, scanning is all well and good (and most of us do it), but nothing compares to a darkroom print

 

[Cromlech]

Thank you.

I'm looking for a liquid film developer. It will make dilutions easier. I'm still not sure all that I need, it is very confusing. I HAVE made a list, but i'm not sure all of what I REALLY need.

I think this week, i will get some more film, and then start with the small supplies needed for the dark room: a steel tank and reel (16 0z), trays and thermometers... and next week (or the week after), i will dive into the chemicals, and then I can start. What is required in terms of thermometers and trays, and tanks? What has worked for you? Lets start there...

For the dark room prints: A few rolls (2-3) I have, i have a special plan for... something like this:

Dead Link Removed

Using a heat source. I have done something like this before, but i'm not sure it would work with traditional photographic paper. Not only that, but more people will see my shots scanned then in a dark room print. Maybe someday...

Richard

 

[holmburgers]

If you're looking for liquid dev, go for HC-110 or the Ilford version. End of discussion.

You then need a stop bath, and a fixer. Some will say that stop bath isn't necessary, I say do it, it can't hurt, it can only help. Then there is also a hypo-clearing agent, but I've personally stopped using it. Just get a good wash after processing.

That's really about it. Load reel in dark, process in developer, stop bath and fixer for the specified times, wash.

Get a tank, and reels. For plastic, go for Paterson, for metal, look for Hewes or Nikor. Start with 2-roll tanks, so if you screw up you only lost 2 rolls.

Just get a quality thermometer; kitchen thermometers will work and probably be fine, though some will say that a more accurate glass thermometer is necessary. Necessary no, better yes.

And having graduated cylinders to measure is key; extras are extremely helpful in that you can have your next chemical measured and ready to pour.

You don't need trays if you're not doing prints. Inkjet photo paper isn't really "photo" paper, it's just printing paper. Do you know this??

And you say "more people will see my shots scanned then in a dark room print". My response would be, are you doing photography for yourself or others? You can always scan a print. But anyways, that's not the point of this discussion...

Feel free to keep the questions coming; everyone here is willing to help!

 

[Cromlech]

I am doing photography for myself... but there's always that one image that i seem to want to share

I was thinking of going for Arista chemicals, but i'll look into what you suggested. Why don't you use the hypo-clearing agent? It just seems the hypo-clearing agent makes everything easier. Can I wash the final fixed film with, say, lukewarm water?

Richard

 

[hpulley]

I hope you'll have room for a darkroom with an enlarger one day. Honestly if I could only do one of 1) developing my film; or 2) making prints I'd choose making prints. Both are great for personalization and it is faster and cheaper to do your own but to me the print making is much more personal; it is harder to get someone else to give me what I want for prints than film development. Scanning also gives you control over the final product but I find I can never get a good scan and inkjet print to go the way I want; real enlargements are much nicer to me.

Ilford and Kodak offer very similar lines. I find the Ilford site and documentation simpler but when I wanted to buy Ilford DD-X locally I couldn't find any so I got Kodak HC-110 instead and it is similar in use, a good liquid concentrated developer which can be used for regular and push processing. Ilford has several other liquid developers to choose from and seems to offer more choice overall, perhaps too much! Really you can process any film in any developer, some people like some better than others but there really aren't any true incompatibilies, just preferences.

I also picked up some Ilford Microphen crystals though make sure because when I bought the big pack I needed a big set of containers to mix the stuff up; there is also a smaller package. Crystals are cheaper and last longer on the shelf so if you are stocking up you might want to go that way. Liquids unopened last a long time though not as long as powder, but once you open them they oxidize. Of course once you mix the powder it will oxidize too. The Kodak HC-110 is a really concentrated liquid so I think it lasts longer than most other liquids which might be good if you don't want to mess with powder mixing.

I got Ilford Ilfostop with indicator. I like it because it is the same concentration for paper and film stop baths. If you need to go cheap then you can go with just a water stop bath or you can dilute white vinegar.

Ilford Rapid Fixer also works for both paper and film fixing at the same concentration which is convenient but Kodak has similar rapid fixer and stop bath products.

You can use a wetting agent or distilled water to try to deal with water spots on your negatives.

You need your tanks and reels. I got some old stainless steel spiral tanks (Nikor, very old). They're good but it takes some practice to figure out loading. Once loaded they seem to have a smaller volume than plastic tanks which saves money on supplies.

You also need film clips to hold them while they dry.

You'll need measuring equipment and containers to hold the chemicals until you pour them in the tank (graduated cylinders, pipettes, beakers, measuring cups, something). You can go to the drugstore and buy some of this stuff used for medicines, and the grocery store for measuring cups or get special purpose stuff for photography and science.

You need a timer of some sort to measure how long things are developing and fixing. A thermometer is also good, for B&W almost any room temperature thermometer will do but it still helps to get consistent results by making sure the temperature and time are correct. B&W chemistry is very convenient for temperatures, not that picky but still for consistency it helps to keep it the same.

Other stuff like negative sleeves to store them are nice but otherwise you can use envelopes or something.

 

[holmburgers]

You want all temps to be roughly the same, 20° C (68°F) is the standard. A wash can be slightly warmer, but you really don't want it to feel warm. 20° is surprisingly cool.

HCA is great if you want to do it; I just ran out and haven't bothered to get some more.... It's not necessary, but it is a convenience/luxury.

And hpulley is right; I forgot to mention a wash-aid like Photo-Flo. Very useful.

 

[Cromlech]

hpulley:

I think powder is the way to go. Let me see what sizes they have, and the cost. The powders themselves may take a little longer to get me started, but at least this way I can store them.

Is the powder generally more concentrated then pre-made liquids? I'm looking to get the most for my money, and storage time as well. I found that 5 gallons dilluted, is about enough for 40 rolls, in a 16 oz tank.

Richard

Edit: Going through my list - is a photo sponge really needed?

 

[hpulley]

Powder is more concentrated as you don't need to buy, ship and store the water. Powder is sort of 100% concentration I suppose you could say so it is even more so than a syrup like HC-110. Powders last almost forever as long as the package doesn't let air or water in, though some like early XTOL had problems with this.

Just make sure that you'll use what you mix up in about 6 months, otherwise you'll be throwing out the remainder of your 5 gallons. Will you shoot 40 rolls in 6 months? If not, get smaller packets that only make half or a quarter of that much liquid. As soon as they are liquid they will be "on the clock". If you buy a few smaller packets then the next packet will last until you have to make the next batch.

It also helps to put that gallon into several smaller containers. The less air in them, the longer the liquids will last before they oxidize. Some use "air-free" stuff to try and keep it from oxidizing too fast but it seems like a pain to top this off every time. There are also 'accordian containers' which will scrunch down to keep the air out but they're kind of weird too.

 

[Cromlech]

Okay, several packets will be the way to go then! Thank you. and yes, i can shoot 40 rolls in 6 months. I am reading "The Negative" By Ansel Adams and trying out a lot of different things, so it is very possible. In the past two weeks, i have shot 10 rolls, although this is not the "normal" thing for me, by far.

Powder it is, then. I will re stock on film, and in the same order get some of the small stuff out of the way. How should powders be stored, once the bag is opened? Say, of this stuff:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/4096-...ilm-Developer-to-Make-1-Gallon-New?cat_id=301

Richard

 

[hpulley]

You don't store opened powder as powder, you generally mix it all up at once which is the other problem with stuff that makes a gallon, you need the right container(s) to store a gallon of developer at once.

 

[Cromlech]

You don't store opened powder as powder, you generally mix it all up at once which is the other problem with stuff that makes a gallon, you need the right container(s) to store a gallon of developer at once.

Ah, okay. So the powder packets THEMSELVES are the "storage" device, until ready to be used, making them good for small batches. Good to know!

I know I can do this... I feel like a REAL photographer now... (almost!)

hpulley, do you know anything about developing type 828 film?

 

[tkamiya]

Old, tried and true chemical is D-76 from Kodak. It's probably the most often used developer everybody compares its own product to. D-76, stop bath, any fixer, and Photo-flo will complete the chemical line-up that you'll need. In addition to this, you'll need some storage bottles, a thermometer, a kitchen timer, a reel and a tank, and cloth pins. That's about it....

For storing developer chemicals, instead of buying one 1 liter bottle, buy 4 250cc.... This is so you can store them separately in full bottle. It will help you keep the chemicals in oxygen free environment - which is a requirement to prevent oxidation - so you can keep it full 6 months or longer.

Hey, have fun!

 

[Cromlech]

thank you, tkamiya. I almost forgot about the bottles to hold the liquids! haha

Richard

 

[hpulley]

Sorry, I don't know 828 film, never shot with that one.

 

[fschifano]

Ah, okay. So the powder packets THEMSELVES are the "storage" device, until ready to be used, making them good for small batches. Good to know!

What are you talking about? When you open up a package of powdered developer to make a gallon, you need to mix up the whole gallon. You can't, or at least shouldn't, divide up the powder into smaller quantities for a couple of reasons. First, some of the components will oxidize the powders will oxidize. Second, there's no way to guarantee that you'll have the right proportion of each chemical in each portion.

 

[jeffreyg]

You will probably get as many chemical suggestions as responses. I would start with a 'universal" developer such as D76 or Ilford ID11 and learn its ins and outs. Constantly switching because you heard about a wiz-bang developer will not get you consistent results. Mix the powder to make a stock solution, ask your pharmacist if he has some amber bottles he has no use for (16oz) and fill to the top. The chemistry should last for a reasonable time that way. I prefer stainless steel tanks and reels - they last a very long time. Water works as a stop for film and as mentioned any decent fixer should work. I use developer once and fixer lasts for several rolls usually indicated on the packaging, however, I would use it for fewer than suggested. Hypo clearing solution and Photo-Flo. Distilled water for mixing chemicals is preferred by some photographers.

A graduate to measure the chemicals, a consistent thermometer, timer, film washer, a film squeegee if you are so inclined (be very careful if you use one - they can scratch film) and clips to hang film to dry.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

 

[hpulley]

What are you talking about? When you open up a package of powdered developer to make a gallon, you need to mix up the whole gallon. You can't, or at least shouldn't, divide up the powder into smaller quantities for a couple of reasons. First, some of the components will oxidize the powders will oxidize. Second, there's no way to guarantee that you'll have the right proportion of each chemical in each portion.

Yes, I was trying to say the same thing. You need to mix powders up all at once. Once mixed, like a liquid developer they will oxidize over time so you have months to use them up.

However, the unopened packages of powder last a long time.

 

[Cromlech]

What are you talking about? When you open up a package of powdered developer to make a gallon, you need to mix up the whole gallon. You can't, or at least shouldn't, divide up the powder into smaller quantities for a couple of reasons. First, some of the components will oxidize the powders will oxidize. Second, there's no way to guarantee that you'll have the right proportion of each chemical in each portion.

Hi Frank,

No, I'm referring to having several one-gallon packets. This way, it'll be easier to store (and use slowly).

Richard

 

[tkamiya]

Hi, again.

If you are talking about Kodak's products, many of them will come in 1 gallon, 5 liter, and 1 liter packets. (also 5 gallons or larger if you really want a lot!) You must dissolve the entire content into water to make a solution. Then, you can slowly or quickly start using them. Keep in mind, if you are talking about 35mm film, single tank usually takes about 250cc. That means from 1 liter solution, you can get 4 sessions out of it. You can reuse (replenish) developers with maintenance and care, but for first timers, it is easier to use it ONE-SHOT. You use it, and discard it. Once your storage bottle is NOT full, meaning there's some air at the top, degradation speeds up quickly. Many of us use several technique to avoid this.

While it's a bit more expensive per portion, I prefer buying 1 liter packets so I know my developers are fresher. It really depends on how many rolls you intend to process in 6 months period. With some developers like XTOL, this is not a choice as it only comes in 5 liter or larger. I use a system of multiple bottles to store my XTOL.

Many of us are pretty passionate about our choice of developers and how to use and store them. Bottom line though, is to pick one, mix it according to the instructions, store it in oxygen free environment, and experiment with it to your heart's content.

 

[2F/2F]

You need a paper developer, a film developer, and a dual-purpose (film and paper) fixer.

In addition to these bare basics, stop bath, hypo clear, and a wetting agent help.

Here is an example of a basic Kodak list:

HC-110 film developer, 16 oz. syrupy concentrate. There are three "stages" of HC-110, each representing different dilutions: concentrate (undiluted "syrup" straight from the Kodak bottle), stock solution (intermediate solution), and working solution (the solution actually used to develop film). Use one oz. concentrate to 31 oz. water to make a quart of working-strength developer; you can skip the stock solution with a batch this large, as it is easy to measure 1 oz. of syrup (but harder to measure smaller amounts for smaller batches). For batches of working solution smaller than 1 qt., make up a stock solution first, which is 1:3 concentrate to water. Then, make working solution of any volume by using a 1:7 stock to water ratio.
(or)
D-76 film developer powder, pouch to make 1 gal. stock solution. Use straight and pour back after use, counting rolls processed and adding time every four rolls; or use 1:1 stock to water and dump after each use.
Dektol paper developer powder, pouch to make 1 gal. stock solution. Mix 1:2 stock to water to use. Keep used working solution after a printing session if it still works well, or discard it if it does not.
Flexicolor Fixer, 1 gal. Color fixer, but works perfectly for black and white and is ultra cheap. Non-hardening, which is preferable for most uses. Use 1:4 for film or 1:9 for paper. There is pretty much no reason to use anything else, unless you want a hardening fixer, in which case you can use the liquid Kodafix Solution, or powdered Kodak Fixer with the included hardener added.

Here is a basic Ilford list:

Ilfotec HC or ID-11 film developers. HC has the same mixing directions as HC-110, and ID-11 has the same ones as D-76. Developing times and developer characteristics are effectively identical as well. HC has become much more expensive than HC-110, so I no longer use it. I switched back to HC-110.
Ilford PQ or Ilford Multigrade paper developers. Same directions for both: mix 1:9 to use. These have the convenience of coming as a stock solution, as opposed to a powder like Dektol. PQ and MG are slightly different in contrast and hue. IME PQ is better for cleaner ("snappier") tonal separation in the whites and is warmer in hue (very slightly creamy), while MG is better for more soft and subdued high tones and is neutral in hue. PQ proves somewhat hard to find in stock in the U.S., and you may have to order a five liter container when you order it. PQ is my standard developer now. Once I tried it, and saw the slight differences compared to MG, I switched. It suits most of my pictures slightly better than MG.
Ilford Hypam or Ilford Rapid Fixer. Hypam works the same as Rapid Fixer. However, Hypam allows the addition of a hardener if desired, and is cheaper. However, Rapid Fixer is more commonly found in stock, for some reason. Even if using mostly Ilford chemicals, I would still consider the Kodak Flexicolor option for a fixer, as it is so cheap.

Both Kodak and Ilford make stops, wetting agents, and hypo clearing agents, however, in the U.S., Kodak's always seem to be in stock and cheap, and Ilford's seem hard to find and expensive. I suggest Kodak Indicator Stop Bath in the smallest bottle available ( 16 oz., I believe), Kodak Photo-Flo 200 in the smallest bottle available (again 16 oz., I believe), and Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, which costs about four bucks for the quart pouch, which makes five quarts of working solution. It is much cheaper to buy the gallon pouches (to make five gallons of working solution), but I find that I never use the whole gallon of stock before its published shelf life has passed. I don't know how bad sodium sulfite in water can really go, but it is something to be aware of.

 

[Cromlech]

Hi everyone,

Mother will not let me drill holes above the sink cabinet to let the film dry. This has led me to the only other option: The basement.

To follow the creation of my Darkroom (and to see an ancient basement) click here:
http://darkroomcromlech.blogspot.com/

 

[fschifano]

I think the first thing you need to do is to clean up that basement. With darkroom work, cleanliness is probably the most overlooked and most important factor for the novice. Failing to get dust and dirt under control will inevitably lead to poor quality work and disappointment.

 

[Cromlech]

I think the first thing you need to do is to clean up that basement. With darkroom work, cleanliness is probably the most overlooked and most important factor for the novice. Failing to get dust and dirt under control will inevitably lead to poor quality work and disappointment.

Good idea.

Is it time to break out the mop and the solvents?

Richard

EDIT: I went ahead and did just that. See next post.