Time to end the mirror slap myth

Sirius Glass · Jan 30, 2009

Time to end the mirror 'slap myth' and the 'a Hasselblad can only be used on a tripod' myth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKcbyh2CrA&feature=related

Steve

Mark Layne · Jan 30, 2009

Sirius Glass said:
Time to end the mirror 'slap myth' and the 'a Hasselblad can only be used on a tripod' myth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKcbyh2CrA&feature=related

Steve

It's not a myth

df cardwell · Jan 30, 2009

Hasselblads suck. Leicas suck. Zeiss is crap. Everything good is crap,
and unless it is totally worthless, its overpriced. If it isn't complete shit,
it isn't worth having.

OK, have fun. I'm pouring more beer and going back to watch "House".

phaedrus · Jan 30, 2009

So that's why they put this mirror release button right below the winding knob. Strange Swedes!

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 30, 2009

When these kinds of cameras were relatively new, they were generally called "hand cameras" as opposed to view cameras that required a tripod in general, so they've always been designed to be handholdable. That doesn't mean they won't give sharper results on a tripod, when it's feasible to use a tripod.

keithwms · Jan 30, 2009

df cardwell said:
Hasselblads suck. Leicas suck. Zeiss is crap. Everything good is crap,
and unless it is totally worthless, its overpriced. If it isn't complete shit,
it isn't worth having.

OK, have fun. I'm pouring more beer and going back to watch "House".

+1
:rolleyes:

P.S. I eagerly await the follow-up video in which shots at 1/60 sec with and without MLU are compared at 2 ft enlargement. Now, back to my telly...

chriscrawfordphoto · Jan 30, 2009

My hasselblad 503cx has such harsh mirror slap that it makes the whole tripod (a bogen 3011) vibrate! I'd never noticed it till today when i had the camera on the tripod after shooting a roll of Acros. I was just playing with the camera and i fired it with the cable release while i had my hand on a tripod leg and it SHOOK. Even with the mirror prereleased, the tripod vibrated when i released the shutter! It doesn't seem to be affecting the photos, as they're very sharp.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 30, 2009

"House" sucks.

df cardwell said:
Hasselblads suck. Leicas suck. Zeiss is crap. Everything good is crap,
and unless it is totally worthless, its overpriced. If it isn't complete shit,
it isn't worth having.

OK, have fun. I'm pouring more beer and going back to watch "House".

2F/2F · Jan 30, 2009

What is the myth? Of course you can use a Hassy hand held! IMHO and in my experience, mirror shake is an issue on a tripod when you want extensive D of F, and hand held, but less so at hand held speeds, where my ability to hold the composition steady has more of an influence. The one over focal length rule of thumb works well, plus one or two shutter speeds for comfort, and you are good. With medium format, faster films are not as "bad" as with 35mm once you print them, so you can increase your chances of being able to shoot hand held by using 400, 800, or 1000 film. I use my Mamiya M645 all the time hand held, and have shot the new RZ a few times hand held, even with a 100 film (although I do not do so with telephotos).

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 30, 2009

Agree with number 2 letter F here. My favorite way of shooting my Hasselblad is portraiture hand held. The 80mm Planar wide open at above 1/125s is an amazing tool. Since it's a normal lens, you have to be a tad careful with how you position things, but that's easy.
I get some extremely sharp prints from those negatives, so I think we can write off the mirror slap as a source of unsharp images. Can you get sharper by using a tripod? I will let the number crunchers and scientists answer that. But for 14" square, hand held Hasselblad hasn't been a problem so far.

dpurdy · Jan 30, 2009

House does suck.

df cardwell · Jan 30, 2009

dpurdy said:
House does suck.

Not as much as Bogen tripods

Funny thing about tripods and cameras. Maybe the problem isn't the camera , but the tripod you're using. Back in the dark ages, using Gitzos and Majestics, there really wasn't a problem. But we didn't have the Internet, either. Oh, well.

Oh. Ansel was-is-name talked about this. Funny resonances from cameras just didn't work with some tripods. Can't predict it, only test it.

Wonder how far you could launch a Hassie from a Davis Sanford tripod ?

nc5p · Jan 30, 2009

When shooting the Mamiya 645 I try to lock up the mirror at low shutter speeds. I seem to get sharper results. Most of these shots are braced on trees or other objects.

Lee L · Jan 30, 2009

dpurdy said:
House does suck.

In a gruff, but lovable way.

System resonance is the thing on mirror slap reverb, and you have to distinguish between slap before the shot and after. Apparently aftershock doesn't matter so much. My question is, how is a shot with the camera unsecured on a solid table comparable with either handheld or tripod based ... and which tripod? So what I learned from this little video is that you must carry around a solid table with your Hassy (although it could be a shelf attached to a concrete wall) , set the camera on the table without attaching the tripod socket, use a cable release, and then you won't have to scramble after your loose change.

Oh, yeah, I also learned how to poorly design a test.

Anyone recall the location of a test I remember seeing a good while back ... an "artificial star" (pinpoint light source) shot with a camera on several tripods at multiple shutter speeds. Something in the 1/8 to 1/125 second was the worst shake, and longer than 1/8th was as sharp as the faster shutter speeds. Could have been Photo Techniques.

Lee

2F/2F · Jan 30, 2009

df cardwell said:
Not as much as Bogen tripods

Hell. All this time I thought that a Bogen was good enough, and now people are talking about fancy brands of which I have never heard. I don't care how "good" a tripod is. I do care how easily, reliably, and quickly it works, while being solid. My Bogens have worked just fine for me in every way for all formats up to 8x10, and are smooth and quick to use. Mostly for 4x5 and medium format, though. My only regret is selling my 3033, which I got for free. I loved how quickly it set up, and the solidity combined with the light weight. Currenty, I have a 3036, which I got cheap and mint, and use as a storage method for my Grover 8x10, or sometimes when I want something lighter than my 3051 for a long walk or climb...although I did carry my 3051 over my shoulder the five miles home from school on MANY an occasion after a late night in the lab or newsroom, when my bus had stopped running. This was in the days before I had a strap for it, so it went over my shoulder; sometimes with a 4x5 in a case in my other hand as well. It was not fun, but definitely possible. The 3051 is beat, but always works, and is heavy, but not unbearable to carry for long distances, especially with a strap. The leg releases on the top are the number one reason I love it so much. These cut the setup/adjustment time *at least* in half compared to my 3036. Also, I cannot stand a tripod that has rotary clamps instead of lever clamps, like many of the others I have used and disliked.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 30, 2009

I don't know. Does it all matter that much?

I have a Berlebach tripod that is rock solid in dirt, on a cliff, on ice, etc. It doesn't like indoors shooting much, so I use a - ta-da - Bogen Manfrotto tripod for that. If anybody wants to gift me with a Majestic - I'll happily take it, but I can't tell a difference between the Bach and the Bogen sharpness wise. For me - I just use them, don't think twice about it, and guess what. Either tripod, or hand held - it all comes out just fine.

Then again, that could also mean that all my shots suck compared to what it could be... Hmmm, never thought about that.

House only sucks because Don interrupts APUG activities with it. Otherwise I too love that awkward personality.

Toffle · Jan 30, 2009

Fun (stupid) thing to try. You're shooting hand held with your GS-1 (which kicks like a deer rifle) and you absent mindedly lock your mirror up. :rolleyes:

keithwms · Jan 31, 2009

What this video proves is that when a camera is resting on a solid surface, the mass of the camera is effectively much larger, hence more mass damping.

Let me suggest the following. Put you hassie in a casserole dish full of water. Trip the shutter and look at the motion of the water. Post the vid for further comment.

Kidding aside, you can rest assured that there will be some camera/lens/tripod/shutter speed combinations at which you'll see blur. And you won't know it until you enlarge your neg. So why not simply use MLU if you can. Nobody (?) is saying that MLU is always required, but you won't know that it was required until you see your neg at the enlarger. So why take chances...

walter23 · Jan 31, 2009

Mark Layne said:
It's not a myth

It may not be a myth, but when you handhold a speed graphic at 1/40th as the huge 5" x 5" curtain goes KER-THWAP-WHIRRRRRRR-CHUNKA! and get a reasonably sharp result you start worrying less about it:

(NOTE: not an example of a good photo, just one of only a couple of handheld speed graphic shots I have so far).

Having said that, just go ahead and try shooting a 400mm lens on 35mm without mirror lockup and a cable release... I dare you! As a matter of habit (and tested good practice, for that matter) I use MLU for really long lens use or whenever my shutter speed is in the 1/40th to 1 second range on a tripod.

2F/2F · Jan 31, 2009

keithwms said:
What this video proves is that when a camera is resting on a solid surface, the mass of the camera is effectively much larger, hence more mass damping.

Let me suggest the following. Put you hassie in a casserole dish full of water. Trip the shutter and look at the motion of the water. Post the vid for further comment.

Kidding aside, you can rest assured that there will be some camera/lens/tripod/shutter speed combinations at which you'll see blur. And you won't know it until you enlarge your neg. So why not simply use MLU if you can. Nobody (?) is saying that MLU is always required, but you won't know that it was required until you see your neg at the enlarger. So why take chances...

That would be a more practical test for a Nikonos....

katphood · Jan 31, 2009

OK, I was so obsessed with this subject, I put it to the test. You can find my results on my site (http://home.comcast.net/~kurt.thompson/), but I'll give you the nutshell version here. Before I start, what I'm about to say applies to my gear (35mm and Pentax 645) and *may* be applicable beyond that. YMMV.

You simply must find out for yourself with your own gear if and when it matters. Here's a good way to test: get one of those tiny LED lights and photograph it in a dark garage. Each negative should show nothing but a point of light dead center. Be sure to shoot at the vulnerable shutter speeds *and* for comparison, those that are safe. I shot at 1/60 down to 1 sec. (I learned of this test from Barry Thornton's "Edge of Darkness".) You should be able to see differences between the control speeds (like 1/60) and the vulnerables ones (1/15 and thereabouts). Test with MLU on / off, with a weighted / non-weighted tripod. If no differences, all is well. Make sure to test your long lenses as well as your short ones. Find out their vulnerable speeds. If everything sucks, then maybe reconsider your tripod or head (the one on your tripod, I mean). Then add a stop, taking into consideration that the test was performed on flat concrete and not under field conditions. (Don't you just love setting up your 'pod in a grassy field?)

My results, that work for me and *maybe* you: Mirror slap matters, but not as much as a tripod. A tripod is good, but a weighted one (attach some weight to it) is much better. To paraphrase Ansel Adams, the best tripod is a 12-ton boulder. Placing a baggie of sand or pebbles on the camera helps too. Placing my hand there made things worse. Again YMMV.

I also found that different cameras have different levels of slap. My wife's AE-1 has a fairly large mirror, no MLU, and apparently no dampening. It didn't do so well as whatever it was I tested against. No two cameras are alike, which is why you should do your own tests.

k_jupiter · Jan 31, 2009

All I know about "House" is nothing. I do know that after Feb 18th you won't be able to post about such inappropriate subjects as all TV will be DIGITAL in the USA.

Thank god.

As far as mirror slap, that's what the little rotating dohickey is for on my rb67. I don't see any vibration camera mounted on my 3036.

tim (tv-less) in san jose

Lee L · Jan 31, 2009

OK, I have to leave the thread now and wrap my head around the idea of Majestic, Gitzo, and Davis and Sanford (wherefore art thou ampersand?) being fancy obscure brands.

Then I'll go ask J. Alfred how to do the rolled trousers thing.

Lee

Ed Sukach · Jan 31, 2009

dpurdy said:
House does suck.

Which one?

A few years ago, my wife was the victim of a General Practioner Doctor***. Feeling ill, she had called for help (an examination would have been good) and was told, by a voice over the telephone, "Not to worry. Just wait it out."
Following that boilerplate guess she became progressively worse until the next morning, when in agony with her appendix perforated, complete with peritonitis, we finally convinced this clown that he should actually examine her. The "advice" had been dispensed by a receptionist - receptionist - not even a nurse of the lowest order, leafing through "what to do cards".

The next stop for my wife was in the Emergency Room of our local hospital, in the care of a COMPETENT physician (we discovered later that he was the "fixer" of other's mistakes). His care, an emergecy operation, ten days in the hospital, more than a month of recovery, saved my wife's life.

That doctor's name was "House". He was from New Zealand, and I think returned to NZ shortly after. Far and above all else, I will be indebted to him.

I wonder if the Television deal "House" was, in any way, connected with him.

*** I wonder how that #$@ ever made it through Doctor 101.

Vaughn · Jan 31, 2009

I borrowed an OM-1 and with some long exposures found out why they have a MLU on such a small camera.

Vaughn

Time to end the mirror slap myth

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