Time for Another Paper Survey?

photomc

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2003
Messages
3,575
Location
Texas
Format
Multi Format
Is it time for another Alt Process Paper Survey?

With several of the papers either changed/having issues/or just gone from the landscape was wondering if we could get some input from those that print alternative process list what papers they are using. I would be willing to pull the information together in a summary if there is any interest.

The following format might be useful:

  1. Process - plt/pld, VDB, Cyanotype,Kallitype, etc
  2. Paper - Common name, manufacture (mill), weight
  3. pre process treatment - acid bath (what type), sizing (kind)
  4. post process treatment - type
Any other points you guys/gals want to see?

Be sure to include any new papers you have tried even if the paper is not useful, it would be nice to know.

Thanks in advance..
 

Vaughn

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
10,108
Location
Humboldt Co.
Format
Large Format
I thought photography taught one patience?

Add:

#5 Subjective observation of qualities of the above combination.


Process - plt/pld, developed in room temperature Potassium oxalate
Paper - Crane's Weston Diploma Parchment -- warm white
pre process treatment - none
post process treatment - none
Subjective- not bad, too warm for many images, hidden defect in many sheets (crease shows up when wet and stays), images not as sharp. Easy to coat, but has one side that is easily damaged when coating compared to the other (no visual clue to which side is which). Over-all, fair.

I will be making some prints of COT320 recently purchased soon.

Vaughn
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP

photomc

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2003
Messages
3,575
Location
Texas
Format
Multi Format
if the interest picked up it on this, it would be nice to include where the paper was sourced - ie where you get your papers, have seen some interest for those that might want to source paper in EU,UK as well as AU and NZ. Offer still stands to compile the list
 

Katharine Thayer

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
Messages
520
Format
4x5 Format
process: gum bichromate
paper: Arches bright white hot press, 140#
pre-treatment: size with gelatin hardened with glyoxal
no post-treatment
thoughts: I love the crisp smooth surface that, unlike other hot press paper I've used, retains its smooth crisp quality through multiple soaks. But the crispness makes it probably not a good beginner paper, as the surface is not very absorbent, and for that reason it's challenging to coat smoothly and evenly. But for me, the print quality is so superior to other papers that I'm willing to put up with its faults. There's no other paper I like remotely as well.

Katharine
 
OP
OP

photomc

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2003
Messages
3,575
Location
Texas
Format
Multi Format

Yes, I have seen these - the problem is there have been recent changes such as the closing of the Rising Mill, problems with some of the other popular papers - Soooo, was hoping we could try another round.

Thank You to those that have included your papers, it is a good start.
 

nick mulder

Member
Joined
May 15, 2005
Messages
1,212
Format
8x10 Format
Pt/Pd - COT320 via B&S and/or freestyle into NZ - pre> a bit of steam if its not summer - post>EDTA/sodium Sulphite - I dont have much experience with Weston Diploma or Cranes Ecru but both seem to work with a little less contrast with what I have attempted so far...

Subjectively I prefer the high whites of COT320, but can see possibilities for the other two for lower con work

First attempts at Ziatype today are yeilding good results in both COT320 and Weston Diploma

Cyanotype I used to get great results with the Cranes Ecru but now I'm getting all sorts of weirdness (ammonia fumes even on one occasion), haven't really concentrated enough on it tho, it was just to proof 8x10 in a cheaper process ...
 

Ian Leake

Subscriber
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
1,630
Location
Switzerland
Format
Analog
Process: Pt/Pd (Potassium Oxalate developer with Potassium Dichromate for contrast control; Citric Acid clearing bath)
Paper: Buxton, Ruscombe Mill, 160 gsm (also available in 240 gsm)
Pre-process Treatment: None
Post-process Treatment: Flatten in a press and then dry mount to larger sheets of Chateau Vellum (also from Ruscombe Mill, but no longer made except to special order)
Subjective: Buxton is a beautiful paper with a pronounced texture and a natural tone. If you want a smooth surface then this is not for you, but if you want a sensuous finish then you have to try it. It coats very well (usually – see note below) and has good wet strength. It’s also a dream to spot. But it is a handmade paper and that brings some downsides. For example there are often small flecks of debris from the manufacturing process in the paper surface (which can be a pain) so you need to inspect every sheet carefully before use; there’s some variation between sheets in how rapidly it absorbs the chemicals (not a problem though - just something to be aware of so you don’t panic); and occasionally I’ve found sheets which erupt with so much loose cellulose during processing that afterwards they look furry (that’s a real pain). Accepting these features of a handmade paper, I have to say that the mill takes quality control very seriously so the overall level of quality is very high. It's expensive though so it's probably not a paper to learn with.

I’ve also used:
  • Arches Platine – I’ve fallen out of love with this, but still use it sometimes as I have loads of it left. I’ve found it hard to spot. But it's a great paper to learn with
  • COT 320 – easy to coat but all the sizing floats off into the developer which then needs constant filtering. Otherwise it’s very similar to Arches Platine – which I prefer slightly so I don’t use COT 320 anymore
  • Cranes Weston Diploma – nice warm tone (if you like that kind of thing) but wet strength is rubbish. I won’t use it anymore
 

Peter Schrager

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
4,172
Location
fairfield co
Format
Large Format
process et.

Processlat/pall with pott dichromate for the dev. sometimes use the cold tone dev but now I'm in florida and the temps are naturally higher
Paper:cranes ecru and the the brilliant white-this is old stock which still works perfectly. these are 90lb. they coat VERY well with a brush or a rod. the word is out that the new brilliant white won't work(?) cot320 sometimes and I have a stash of the Ruscombe which I'm about to use for my new/old 8x20 camera
Pre-Process:none
Post Process:none except I have tried gold toning with varying degrees of success i.e. it isn't worth the time...
Best, Peter
 

wilsonneal

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
598
Location
Northern NJ
Format
8x10 Format
Process: Pt/Pd (warm or room temp Potassium Oxalate, EDTA or Citric Acid clearing bath)
Paper: Stonhenge White, COT320
Pre-process Treatment: Hang stock in (60%) humidified darkroom for about an hour before coating. Coat. Air dry until shine is gone, hair dryer until emulsion is dry. Sometimes rehumidify briefly. Expose immediately. I work one at a time on coating as my negs can be a little inconsistent and the amount of Na2 varies.
Post-process Treatment: None
Subjective: I love COT320 but it just seems too expensive. I do use it, but use Stonehenge more often. I like Stonehenge very much but the texture is slightly chunky when I want high resolution. It's nice for my portraits, though. The Rising mill where this was made is gone. Legion Paper bought the name and formula and is making it again. This new paper is just now being shipped to retail stores, so I will have to test it to see if it is still working in my darkroom.
 

nick mulder

Member
Joined
May 15, 2005
Messages
1,212
Format
8x10 Format
Quick un/related question for the dichromate contrast control users - can ammonium dichromate be used instead of potassium dichromate ? - I have both, but much more ammonium and its already in soln.

If not, how do I make a '%50 soln.' of Pot Dichromate ?

I'd make just one developer (3~4 drops %50 soln. per 200ml Pot Ox maybe) and work the NA2 for control, but would hopefully use less with a strongish developer - I like contrasty prints, but they're working out expensve!

Also after how many 8x10's would I replenish the dichromate in 1L of Pot Ox ?


So the COT320 sizing is what is causing the gunk in the developer ? hmmm, I quite like the weird science experiment that developers become over time - for me Pot Ox is a lot more clingy than the citrate so I'm often topping it up due to small amounts being carried off on each sheet
 

Ian Leake

Subscriber
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
1,630
Location
Switzerland
Format
Analog

Personally I wouldn’t want a 50% solution of Potassium Dichromate anywhere near me – that stuff’s lethal (seriously – read the data sheet at http://www.silverprint.co.uk/HSPDF/Pot-dich.PDF – and if it kills you then it will kill you in a very, very messy way – and if someone close to you drinks it then it will kill them in a very, very messy way). I keep a small bottle of 10% solution in a safe place and add the necessary number of drops when I mix up fresh developer. A 10% solution is 10g of Potassium Dichromate made up to 100cc with distilled water. This is still a lethal quantity and must be handled with gloves in case it gets into you through cuts or abrasions in your skin.

I can’t see the benefit of using two different agents for contrast control – things will be simpler, more understandable and more reproducible if you use just one.

I keep five 1 litre bottles with different grades of developer. If I need a custom grade (which is rare) then it’s simple to make it. This doesn’t take much space and is very convenient. I mix developer in batches of 600cc which is good for perhaps eight to twelve 10x8s (depends a bit on developer temperature, paper size, soak times, etcetera).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TheFlyingCamera

Membership Council
Advertiser
Joined
May 24, 2005
Messages
11,546
Location
Washington DC
Format
Multi Format
I don't use contrasting agent in my developer, period. PotOx is nasty enough, I don't need to be adding dichromates of any variety to it! Just coat your paper with your emulsion - equal parts metal salt(s) and sensitizer, then add contrast agent on top (this is where the NA2 comes in). This keeps the process simple and the contrast control repeatable and consistent. No need or purpose in mixing disparate contrast control agents at two separate steps in your process.
 

Katharine Thayer

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
Messages
520
Format
4x5 Format
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, but if not, then there's no need to be worried about anyone having that much potassium dichromate in solution, because it's not possible. It's a matter of solubility: depending on the temperature, the maximum of potassium dichromate you can get into solution is somewhere around 13%, I believe, but that's just my rough recall; I'm sure you can look up the exact number for a given temperature. Ammonium dichromate is much more soluble and can be mixed up to 27-30%.
Katharine
 

nick mulder

Member
Joined
May 15, 2005
Messages
1,212
Format
8x10 Format
Well - I've just come out of 8 months chemotherapy so my body is full of crap anyway... which is not to say I wont use proper gear - gloves, glasses, mask, tongs, separate gear for each process etc... - I use dichromates all the time with reversal developing of 16mm cine film also - then there is gum bichromate, screen printing, ziatype - etc... etc...

Anyhoo - I like contrasty images at the moment - it suits the work I do so I'd rather cut down on using the NA2 ($$$) by offsetting the contrast in the developer - the way I see it, is that I'm not making things anymore complex than previously - just a tad more toxic maybe...

I'll make one developer - as I had before - and it will increase contrast a little, and then I'll step back on the NA2 to compensate ... Most of my negs are the same in terms of content (studio portraiture, three 800w lamps) - so once I have settled process wise (photographic content remaining constant) I should have little or no sensitometry work to do ...

The %50 soln. either I misread or well, I;m not sure - bu 'Clay' a user here mentioned it in an archive at another forum (via google) - I'll have to experiment I guess ... I have both %5 and %20 Ammonium Dichromate here in soln. and potassium dichromate in lovely orange drink powder concentrate that I'll mix up in used orange juice bottles (we're all consenting adults huh! - seriously though, I will be careful with it)

So, if I mix potassium dichromate until it is no longer soluble (water temp comes into play here??) - what soln. is that ? I wish, it was simple, like - put 1 gram per Litre ... soln. talk is confuddling

so, sorry to hijack the thread - but could the actual dichromate users enlighten me ?

NIck
 

Katharine Thayer

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
Messages
520
Format
4x5 Format
nick mulder said:
So, if I mix potassium dichromate until it is no longer soluble (water temp comes into play here??) - what soln. is that ?
Click to expand...

As I said, it depends on the temperature, but somewhere around 13%, give or take. Try mixing 13 grams with say 70 ml warm water and then add cool water to make 100 ml total. If some of it precipitates out as it cools, you know you've got a saturated solution.

I googled Clay and dichromate; I'm not sure if this is what you're referring to, but I found a post where he suggests using a 50% solution of sodium dichromate. Sodium dichromate is much more soluble than potassium dichromate, and I trust he's right that you could make a 50% solution of sodium dichromate.
 

Akki14

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
1,874
Location
London, UK
Format
4x5 Format
nick mulder said:
So, if I mix potassium dichromate until it is no longer soluble (water temp comes into play here??) - what soln. is that ? I wish, it was simple, like - put 1 gram per Litre ... soln. talk is confuddling
Click to expand...

I thought the solution stuff was confusing too. The January 2008 issue of (UK) B&W Photography has an article on gum printing but it really glosses over that, it just says make a saturated solution of potassium dichromate. In fact, I'm not sure the article would make me want to do gum prints unless there was more actual information in it. There's a few good pointers (the writer uses a facial tanner like I do and they say they have it up 5inches high and the exposure times are between 1min30sec and 5minutes... so my current practice of having it at 120 spool height is probably going to overcook a gum print) but it seemingly had to gloss over important points (nothing about sizing, just preshrinking the paper).
 

nick mulder

Member
Joined
May 15, 2005
Messages
1,212
Format
8x10 Format


yip,

I'm sure its the one - I have my wires crossed... Well, I have Ammonium and potassium dichromate here - Peter and Ian mention using the potassium dichromate - I'll PM them for details and stop bogging down this thread
 

Katharine Thayer

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
Messages
520
Format
4x5 Format
Well, it seemed pretty straightforward to me. A saturated solution -- the most that will go into solution--- of potassium dichromate is around 13 grams per 100 ml solution; a saturated solution of ammonium dichromate is around 27 grams per 100 ml solution. But it depends on the temperature, so you may be able to get a little more or a little less into solution. I guess I don't understand what the difficulty is.
 

Colin Graham

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Messages
1,264
Format
Plastic Cameras
Few seem to be using it but I really like Arches Aquarelle natural white (185 gsm/ 90lb) paper for kallitypes. Needs a acid presoak, I use 5% citric acid for about 10 minutes. It's thin, doesn't soak up the sensitizer, clears fast, washes fast, has great wet strength and just vanishes into the matboard when drymounting, no shadow line. Has a very slight linen texture that holds detail very well.
 

Colin Graham

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Messages
1,264
Format
Plastic Cameras
No, I don't print platinum. I'm curious as well if anyone has used it for other processes- I start a thread a month or so back to see if anyone else was using it but got no replies.
 

nick mulder

Member
Joined
May 15, 2005
Messages
1,212
Format
8x10 Format
Got the hang of Ziatype now - certainly the Cranes Weston Diploma is preferred here, much deeper dmax and slightly contrastier results per equivalent dichromate % compared to COT320 - much better on the wallet also ...

COT320 still the winner with NA2 Pd though.

I'm still loving both processes - Ziatype is slightly more consistent sue to the printing out factor but a good NA2 print when it turns up slightly edges ahead of the Ziatype/Cranes due to the whites of the COT320. Though, if cost did indeed become an issue I would be more than happy to continue on with Zia.

The new batch of Kid Finish is up the wall with all processes - will probably use it to print my CV (inkjet printer)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…