Three new film photography products from Fujifilm

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Henning Serger

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Are not made by Fuji. I'm talking about the cameras made by Fuji, not the film itself.

No, you have said "It's delusional to equate "Instax Camera" with ".Quality"."
That is a general statement, and not focussed on Fujifilm cameras. The better cameras from other instax camera manufacturers like Mint or Zinstax are of course also instax cameras.

You said Fuji was catering to people who want a real photo, who want to see magic develop in their hand, and I said that, if that were the case, Fuji would be indulging a curiosity - because you had characterized it as such.

No, because most users don't consider it as just a "curiosity". It is much more for them. Having a tactile real photo in your hands, having the possibility to make friends happy by giving them a nice present, having long term memories captured on a real photo, having the possibility to improve your prof. wedding photography business (weddings are a very big market for instax) etc. is much much more than just a "curiosity".

They sell the majority of this film to Asian kids who use it for fun

Wrong again. You don't know the market. Instax is a product with global success, and the user base is very wide spread with much more variety than you think. Market analysis are part of my job, I have the numbers.

Best regards,
Henning
 

Helge

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If you don't like the design, just choose one of the instax cameras with a conventional or retro design, like the SQ6, Neo 90 Classic, Mini 40 or instax 300 wide.
Very different designs for very different tastes are offered.

Best regards,
Henning
Are those improvements? They are the very thing I’m talking about.
And only one is Wide.

Doing something that looks good is very very important, for the way it’s sold and treated.

It doesn’t necessarily need to be expensive. Just honest about it’s materials and manufacture.

Silver plastic is not something you can get away with often.
Here it just looks like a Trabant painted gold.

The Lomo cameras has possibly worse lenses than the Fuji ones.
 

fdonadio

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But now, as I'm sure a great many photographers are aware, everyone with a cell phone thinks they can take photos that are just as good as a professional.

Yes, I agree. A handful of friends that know I am a photographer come to me, show these photos and say: “this new iPhone/Galaxy/Moto camera is awesome, look at this picture I took”. And, in part, I agree with them. It’s easy to get a good shot from your son blowing the candles and have everything “correctly” lit (above the “good enough threshold”), especially with the high ISOs and HDR. I myself have taken pictures with my phone that would require me a full-blown studio in the past.

So, if they keep buying something that generates a clearly inferior result, it's because they expect it to.

I disagree with this. For me, this is the point where the “good enough” factor enters the game. I could add that, maybe, the perceived lesser quality (which is arguable) brings back memories of childhood or something. Some film aficionados say that film has a different “warmth” that digital lacks. Maybe...
 
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Henning Serger

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Are those improvements?

Helge, have you already forgotten what you have written just some hours ago?
You have complained about the "Teletubby" design of instax cameras. I have just demonstrated that there are several instax cameras with a completely different design and look.
Not more, not less.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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Henning Serger

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Perfectly in situations the 4th layer was needed for?
The only purpose of the 4th layer is to act as a filter against fluorescent light. Where you dont have this type of lightspectrum the 4th layer does nothing.

Exactly. And as these fluorescent light sources are phasing out and are replaced by LED technology, there is no reason anymore to use the 4th layer technology. Without it you could even make the film potentially bit finer grained, higher resolving and sharper because of a thinner emulsion. Superia X-Tra 400 (the current one without 4th layer) has indeed better sharpness and higher resolution compared to Pro 400H (but is not quite as fine grained). Have tested them in my test lab.

Did or did not X-tra 400 have a green tint after the 4th layer was removed?

I have not had a general green tint with my current Superia X-Tra 400 results.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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Henning Serger

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Henning, what I wanted to point out is that the simple cameras are already sold at a price so high that the profit Fuji makes on them does not represent a motivation to produce better cameras.
.........
It is about profit. Selling a cheaply made camera at the maximum price the user is willing to spend is more profitable than selling a better quality camera

Eugen, the profit margin per camera is definitely not high with these cameras. I can ensure you that from camera factory visits. For decades the profit margins per camera of very cheap cameras (both film and digital) have been very low (often only 5-10%). It works only with very high production volumes.
For Fujifilm and Polaroid this business model works mainly because of the film sales. Instant integral film is extremely complex, difficult and expensive to produce. It is by far the most complex and most high-tech film type of all films. E.g. with current Polaroid film after exposure 50 (!!!) different chemical reactions occur! And some of them have to go simultaneously, and some in sequences, one after the other. It is a kind of miracle that it works at all !
Because of this complexity instant film has the highest costs per picture of all film types. To lower the hurdle for customers, and to partly compensate them for the highest film costs both Polaroid and Fujifilm offer cheap cameras. To make this medium generally attractive to a broad range of different customers.

Those are much more expensive to be produced but the selling price can not be levered up to the sky.

Of course a better camera would be more expensive to produce. And Fujifilm would sell less of them. Nevertheless it would make sense for them to add such models to the line. Because
1. Those photographers who want a better quality camera would also be willing to pay a higher price. None of them would expect that such an improved camera would be sold on the extremely low price level of the current cameras. So the higher production costs would be compensated by the higher selling price.
2. Fujifilm could expand with them to further markets, like photography enthusiasts and professionals. For prof. wedding photography such improved cameras would make much sense. In the last decade I have used my Instax Wide on every wedding I have shot as main photographer. An excellent addition to standard film. The couples and guests have always been very excited by the results. With a better camera this business field could be extended significantly, and I could do even much more on weddings with it, satiesfying the clients even more.
3. The better camera models would sell in lower volumes, but the users of these cameras would buy much more instant film on average for it compared to the standard user of the cheaper models. A wedding photographer who is using it would on average buy more than hundred packs per year.

Me e.g. would not invest money in such a camera for the simple fact that the film format is too tiny in my opinion. (I am not a stamp collector.) An entirely other story would have been for me with the packfilm format.

Looks like you are not well informed about the instax system: There are three different formats: Mini, square and wide. And the wide format has similar dimensions to packfilm.

Best regards,
Henning
 

Helge

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Helge, have you already forgotten what you have written just some hours ago?
You have complained about the "Teletubby" design of instax cameras. I have just demonstrated that there are several instax cameras with a completely different design and look.
Not more, not less.

Best regards,
Henning
Your definition of completely different is liberal. I’ll give that. ;-).
That is the teletubby design I talked about.
 
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Helge

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It is about profit. Selling a cheaply made camera at the maximum price the user is willing to spend is more profitable than selling a better quality camera (means more expensive to produce) that Fuji could not sell for much more money than he already does with these simple boxes.
If you took out of the extendable lens of the 300 model and the flash, a third element in the lens and just an f8 aperture, would be paid for easily.

The autofocus in the Instax line is also pretty useless in anything but clear daylight.
Taking that out and replacing it with zonefocus or a very simple rangefinder for closeup focus would make the whole thing simpler, more robust and cheaper.
While also being substantially better.
 

Don_ih

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That is a general statement, and not focussed on Fujifilm cameras.

I was talking about Fuji cameras. I was only talking about Fuji cameras. Conversation - even argument - takes place in a context and is normally about something.

I'm glad you have the numbers. Check how many people are in Asia as compared with the rest of the world.

No, because most users don't consider it as just a "curiosity". It is much more for them. Having a tactile real photo in your hands, having the possibility to make friends happy by giving them a nice present, having long term memories captured on a real photo, having the possibility to improve your prof. wedding photography business (weddings are a very big market for instax) etc. is much much more than just a "curiosity".

Wedding photography, at this point, is a curiosity.

For me, this is the point where the “good enough” factor enters the game. I could add that, maybe, the perceived lesser quality (which is arguable) brings back memories of childhood or something. Some film aficionados say that film has a different “warmth” that digital lacks.

The whole "good enough" thing is fine, and the other aspect of the instant photo (especially a blurry, overly contrasty, or blown out one) is that it's "quaint". People are not going to look at it like it's a serious thing, because they assume it's not capable of being a serious thing.

Hennig - are you shooting weddings 100% film with no digital backup? Most people would be very nervous about that, at this point in time. Why do you suppose that is?

1. Those photographers who want a better quality camera would also be willing to pay a higher price. None of them would expect that such an improved camera would be sold on the extremely low price level of the current cameras. So the higher production costs would be compensated by the higher selling price.
2. Fujifilm could expand with them to further markets, like photography enthusiasts and professionals. For prof. wedding photography such improved cameras would make much sense. In the last decade I have used my Instax Wide on every wedding I have shot as main photographer. An excellent addition to standard film. The couples and guests have always been very excited by the results. With a better camera this business field could be extended significantly, and I could do even much more on weddings with it, satiesfying the clients even more.
3. The better camera models would sell in lower volumes, but the users of these cameras would buy much more instant film on average for it compared to the standard user of the cheaper models. A wedding photographer who is using it would on average buy more than hundred packs per year.

Also, why are you listing reasons for Fuji to make a better Instax camera? I thought you were arguing against me because the Instax cameras are already generating perfect, magical, little gems that people are oh-so-pleased with? You do realize, this entire time, I have only been arguing that the Fuji Instax cameras are junk and Fuji is fully aware of it?

Or do you just like saying "You're wrong"? It can have a sonorous quality.
 

Helge

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I was talking about Fuji cameras. I was only talking about Fuji cameras. Conversation - even argument - takes place in a context and is normally about something.

I'm glad you have the numbers. Check how many people are in Asia as compared with the rest of the world.



Wedding photography, at this point, is a curiosity.



The whole "good enough" thing is fine, and the other aspect of the instant photo (especially a blurry, overly contrasty, or blown out one) is that it's "quaint". People are not going to look at it like it's a serious thing, because they assume it's not capable of being a serious thing.

Hennig - are you shooting weddings 100% film with no digital backup? Most people would be very nervous about that, at this point in time. Why do you suppose that is?



Also, why are you listing reasons for Fuji to make a better Instax camera? I thought you were arguing against me because the Instax cameras are already generating perfect, magical, little gems that people are oh-so-pleased with? You do realize, this entire time, I have only been arguing that the Fuji Instax cameras are junk and Fuji is fully aware of it?

Or do you just like saying "You're wrong"? It can have a sonorous quality.
Don with all due respect (of which there is a genuine and sizeable amount), what are you really arguing here?
It seems your last sentence might as well be about your post.
Henning has the insider knowledge and deep grokking of the industry. He’s pretty much proved that by now.
The rest is just conjecture and subjective musings.
Higher end instant cameras has had success before. Even with todays market, it would take a huge cynic and pessimist betting against any possibility of it happening again.
Impossible/Polaroids attempts was half baked and with a bad medium to start with.
Fuji needs to be convinced that a Polaroid hundreds series spec camera will fly.
 

fdonadio

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People are not going to look at it like it's a serious thing,

And why do you think (it seems, at least) that people always want “serious” things? Most people just want to have fun...

I really don’t care about Instax, except for r te along some snapshots here and there and hand them to friends. I used to do it with FP100c. It’s just fun (and a very expensive fun). I agree it would be good to have a way of shooting Instax Square with my Hasselblad, but it’s not something I would be willing to spend much money to have, really.

For serious stuff, I have lots of options from Adox, Fuji, Ilford and Kodak. None of them are instant film, though.
 

Don_ih

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why do you think (it seems, at least) that people always want “serious” things?

I don't.

what are you really arguing here?

I know Hennig delivers lots of industry news and knows a great deal about it.

Everything I am arguing is already here. What I said, essentially, is that the majority of people don't expect good results from an Instax camera. The point, however, is that they don't expect good results from any consumer-grade film-based picture-taking device (all they ever hear about film is "grainy", "faded", "old-school"). By making a camera that doesn't really do the film justice, Fuji reinforces the stereotype that an instant photo is blurry, blown out. etc. - and, by association, film-based photography is an inferior product. This "fun" camera is, for the most part, the only film-based experience its owners have had or will ever have.

But I guess it doesn't matter. It's likely the majority of Instax users don't associate it with film at all - for the most part, people seem to think film is no longer made. Fuji will make Instax forever, if it keeps selling like it does. Then they'll probably stop making all their camera film when their staff ages out. Hopefully not. Too bad they didn't make a packfilm camera and continue making that.
 

MamiyaBronica

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Oooh Superia X-Tra 800 was great! I do still miss Natura 1600, though. I felt that was a surprising film. It had really low grain, over-exposed really well, and had a nice colour palette. But I'll take X-Tra800. Anyone want to take a guess at price per-roll if it ever gets released that way?
 
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