thoughts on the announced Kodak film price increase?

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pentaxuser

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I already know the price difference. Bulk Kentmere 400, for example, if half the price of Tri-X. I know the prices of Delta 400 and Tmax are similar..

Not in the U.K. Don, the difference here is massive. Ilford is cheaper by close to 50% We may not be a big market by N America standards but frankly at the current price differential TMax would have to be almost impossibly better than Delta for the switch to TMax or in my case decision to stay with to be worthwhile. Yet it was not always that way. There was always a small premium for Tmax and that was fine but this is no longer the case and my experience of the small premium does not go back to the good old Kodak days of film being supreme and Kodak being a giant with all the economies of scale and profits . I am talking about 6 years ago

pentaxuser
 
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Is it like Sirius says: just a bunch of Kodak haters spouting off??
Yes.
...the irritating difference between their motion picture division and their still film division...
Apparently you really don't want to learn. Matt has explained all this in detail many times. There are no "divisions." Eastman Kodak and Kodak Alaris are two completely separate companies. But I guess hatred is emotional rather than rational.
There is no reason at all to not shoot digital alongside film. It's all photography...
Yup. Despite the nonsense some at PHOTRIO would have readers believe.
...digital sucks!
For color, digital photography is superior to chemical photography. Both dye-based chemical color prints and digital inkjet prints will fade, so there's no advantage there. In terms of initial image capture, given that the end products are equivalent, digital's inherent flexibility gives it the edge. And, before you start raving about how you examine your 8x10 transparencies using a loupe and daylight illumination, in the real world you're probably one, if not the only one, of those who ever do that today. And you won't be able to for very long anyway, since the E6 dyes will fade rapidly from such abuse.

In black and white, nothing holds a candle to properly processed polyester base negatives for life expectancy. While even properly processed fiber base silver halide prints aren't as long lived as the negatives, they're head and shoulders above any inkjet output. Also, they can be printed via carbon or platinum/palladium processes, the results of which have life expectancies even longer than the negatives.

What sucks are absolutist nonsense statements denigrating one mechanization of photography while baselessly exalting another. Especially when that other form exhibits numerous shortcomings.
 

George Mann

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Sorry, but digital sucks, scans of film can noticeably better it, and slide film is superior to all!
 
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Don_ih

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Apparently you really don't want to learn. Matt has explained all this in detail many times. There are no "divisions." Eastman Kodak and Kodak Alaris are two completely separate companies. But I guess hatred is emotional rather than rational.

Read everything I've said: I said it doesn't matter whether they are different divisions, different companies, dance partners, or animal breeders - what matters is the cost of the film. If one makes it and the other tries to sell it at such a high price no one buys it, the first won't be making it.

You clearly don't know what hate is when you think a rational discussion is hate-spewing. Go eat a sandwich or something.

So.... are YOU switching to digital because of the price increases? If not, why not?

I can't put a digital image in a negative holder. I use film to make prints. If I didn't make prints, I would not use film.
 

pentaxuser

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Read everything I've said: I said it doesn't matter whether they are different divisions, different companies, dance partners, or animal breeders - what matters is the cost of the film. If one makes it and the other tries to sell it at such a high price no one buys it, the first won't be making it./QUOTE]
It seems like a good point as it would seem that EK's future is tied to KA's future. I thought Matt King hinted at the sort of relationship between the two that suggests EK has a say in KA pricing but I may be wrong. If I am and KA is autonomous in terms of pricing then it does suggest that had there never been a need to establish a KA then the pricing policy we see might be different. Whether it would benefit the consumer to a greater extent is probably impossible to prove

pentaxuser
 

Sirius Glass

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If one does not like the cost of Ektachrome, then go use Ilford color slide film.
 
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Just the facts!
Come on, George, nothing you've ever posted about digital photography bears any relationship to "facts." :smile:
Read everything I've said: I said it doesn't matter whether they are different divisions, different companies, dance partners, or animal breeders - what matters is the cost of the film. If one makes it and the other tries to sell it at such a high price no one buys it, the first won't be making it...
Try reading what others wrote. The price alone of anything is irrelevant with respect to its continued manufacture. Your assumption that no one will purchase Kodak film as its price continues to escalate simply because you find it too expensive is baseless. The market has spoken and continues to speak. Neither you nor anyone else at PHOTRIO is representative of the film consumer market in 2021.
...You clearly don't know what hate is when you think a rational discussion is hate-spewing. Go eat a sandwich or something...
There's nothing rational about projecting a few posters' hate for Kodak film price increases on the market as a whole. It's not clear why you're concerned about my nutrition, but I'm going to skip the sandwich and have a plate of Cellentani olio with grated parmesan soon after posting this reply. :smile:
...I can't put a digital image in a negative holder. I use film to make prints. If I didn't make prints, I would not use film.
Prints can be readily made at home from digital files using any number of inkjet printers. No film necessary. :D
It seems like a good point as it would seem that EK's future is tied to KA's future...
As I remind readers from time to time, unless someone has insider information and is likely violating an NDA, it's not a good point at all. Given the roles each company plays in the still film market, and that EK is involved in other things besides still film while what's left of KA doesn't appear to be, just the opposite seems probable.
...I thought Matt King hinted at the sort of relationship between the two that suggests EK has a say in KA pricing but I may be wrong...
Who knows and who cares? What's absolutely certain is that whatever costs of manufacture drive EK's wholesale film prices to KA, KA sure can't sell for less than those wholesale prices.
...I may be wrong. If I am and KA is autonomous in terms of pricing then it does suggest that had there never been a need to establish a KA then the pricing policy we see might be different...
How many times can the history of EK's bankruptcy / KA's founding be gone over in detail before speculation about a "need" to establish KA ends? Amazing!
...the pricing policy we see might be different. Whether it would benefit the consumer to a greater extent is probably impossible to prove
In this fantasy world where there was no "need" to establish KA, what kind of pricing policy could exist that would benefit film consumers? There's no pricing policy for any good or service intended to "benefit consumers." All for-profit corporations are machines designed to earn money, and for no other reason.

Kodak-hating whiners: please, quityurbellyachin. Pony up and buy the stuff. Don't purchase any and use instead use other film. Or go digital. None of your complaints will affect the price of Kodak film by even one tenth of one cent per roll/sheet.
 

Don_ih

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Eating a sandwich would keep your mouth and hands occupied.

If you think there is no tipping point where too many users abandon film to make it viable for manufacturers, you are naive.
 

Sirius Glass

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Eating a sandwich would keep your mouth and hands occupied.

If you think there is no tipping point where too many users abandon film to make it viable for manufacturers, you are naive.

Big words coming from someone who claims that Kodak is purposely gouging the public to force the demise of Ektachrome film, based on what that same person had for breakfast that day. You need to get off your high horse before it throws off its back and flat on you ass.

By the way, other than you, who and where are the vast hordes of former Ektachrome users? Are there names in the same folder that Senator Joe McCarthy had the list of Communists in the US State Department and Army? Do you still check for monsters under your bed in the middle of the night, every night?
 
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BrianShaw

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Big words coming from someone who claims that Kodak is purposely gouging the public to force the demise of Ektachrome film, based on what that same person had for breakfast that day. You need to get off your high horse before it throws off its back and flat on you ass.

By the way, other than you, who and where are the vast hordes of former Ektachrome users? Are there names in the same folder that Senator Joe McCarthy had the list of Communists in the US State Department and Army? Do you still check for monsters under your bed in the middle of the night, every night?
I think Sal can express himself without assistance. Why pile on just to bash another member? Sandwiches right now should be really good since many of us have leftover turkey.
 

Sirius Glass

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I think Sal can express himself without assistance. Why pile on just to bash another member? Sandwiches right now should be really good since many of us have leftover turkey.

You may have missed posts several days ago when I called him on pulling his claims out of one of his posterior orifices. A conversation that has been going of for at least a week or two.
 

BrianShaw

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You may have missed posts several days ago when I called him on pulling his claims out of one of his posterior orifices. A conversation that has been going of for at least a week or two.
No, I've been reading. But your behavior is juvenile and, frankly... rather embarrassing (for you). More insults rather than educated (or even ignorant) replies to the issues. If/when he is believed to be wrong, present a counter-argument!

Bye.
 
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Eating a sandwich would keep your mouth and hands occupied.

If you think there is no tipping point where too many users abandon film to make it viable for manufacturers, you are naive.
I think it's more likely that there are too many films. So some will be eliminated leaving the market open to the rest. That's already happening. Then the remainder will then have enough customers to keep film going.
 
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Eating a sandwich would keep your mouth and hands occupied...
It only takes one hand to hold and eat a sandwich. Also, my mouth is not needed to key in replies at PHOTRIO. :smile:
...If you think there is no tipping point where too many users abandon film to make it viable for manufacturers, you are naive.
In addition to attempting the placement of a sandwich in my mouth, you're also trying to put words there. I never claimed there is no such tipping point. Only that neither you, I nor other PHOTRIO members have any idea what it is. And nothing posted here will enlighten us as to its magnitude. The market will decide. It has ideas of its own concerning what is affordable.
...Sandwiches right now should be really good since many of us have leftover turkey.
Neither my wife nor I are fond of eating turkey, so we made Thursday special another way. Rather than our usual healthy diet, several times each year we splurge. I grilled two small pieces of filet mignon in the back yard. It was delicious. :D
 

MattKing

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It seems like a good point as it would seem that EK's future is tied to KA's future. I thought Matt King hinted at the sort of relationship between the two that suggests EK has a say in KA pricing but I may be wrong. If I am and KA is autonomous in terms of pricing then it does suggest that had there never been a need to establish a KA then the pricing policy we see might be different. Whether it would benefit the consumer to a greater extent is probably impossible to prove

pentaxuser
If the Kodak Ltd. Pension fund hadn't paid $600 million to the bankruptcy trustee, and released the super priority claim over the assets they held, there probably wouldn't still be Kodak film production. Building 38 wouldn't have survived the creditors.
We are talking about products that are sold worldwide through the efforts of a marketing and distribution company and its subsidiaries, and manufactured at one location by a single manufacturer who is bound by contract to sell that type of product only through that single marketing and distribution entity.
If you don't think that the manufacturing entity and the marketing and distribution entity aren't interacting constantly concerning the issues of costs and pricing, you don't understand how business like this works.
It was really no different before the bankruptcy. That worldwide network of marketing and distribution people who made up the majority of Eastman Kodak and its many international subsidiaries (particularly after Kodak left the processing business) were the motivating forces behind the bringing to market of new product (and discontinuation of old) through their knowledge of customer needs and willingness to pay.
All the Kodaks together were first and foremost marketing entities whose success (and very high profitability) funded great innovation, which in turn supported the marketing.
And then the world changed.
 

Don_ih

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you're also trying to put words there. I never claimed there is no such tipping point

Then what exactly are you arguing about? Have I said anything that comes close to claiming that I know when such a tipping point will be? All I've said is that a 20% hike is a dangerous jump in price in a market that does not need to use the product.

I called him on pulling his claims out of one of his posterior orifices.

Sorry, but you really only seem like a windbag. There's not really any need to respond to anything particular you say because you haven't said anything worthwhile. A fart has more significance.
 

AgX

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I already know the price difference. Bulk Kentmere 400, for example, if half the price of Tri-X. I know the prices of Delta 400 and Tmax are similar.
Here bulk Tri-X is at 1.7x the price of HP5 and at 1.6x the price of Delta 400.
 

Don_ih

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I think it's more likely that there are too many films. So some will be eliminated leaving the market open to the rest. That's already happening. Then the remainder will then have enough customers to keep film going.

That's probably right. How many iso400 films does Ilford/Kentmere alone make? Delta400, HP5+, Pan 400, and Kentmere 400. If they eliminated some of those, would it be the most expensive or the least expensive? I think hp5 is more popular than Delta.

Kodak has a less-repetitive lineup.
 

Don_ih

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Here bulk Tri-X is at 1.7x the price of HP5 and at 1.6x the price of Delta 400.

An import tax? The pricing of it here is a bit variable depending where you shop. If I buy Kentmere from the store Ilford lists as its Canadian outlet, it costs a dollar more for a roll of 36 exposures and $30 more for a bulk roll than it does to buy from B&H in the US. But I'd have to pay duty on what I buy at B&H. That will make the single roll about the same price but the bulk roll will still be much cheaper.
All Kodak film (I think all of it) is covered by NAFTA, so no duty.
Odd that BH lists a bulk roll of hp5 as NAFTA qualified. But it's no cheaper to buy it from B&H than it is to just buy it here.
 
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AgX

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And import duties are the same for both countries: 5.3%
Thus even if one would consider the old state of the UK or consider old stock imported in the past, the duty cannot explain the price difference.
 
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