thoughts on the announced Kodak film price increase?

[BrianShaw]

While this thread has been a "slice", it is in danger of being relegated to "off topic" purgatory ......

mea culpa. Doing penance now.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Those who complain about film prices ought give consideration to Mirko's post from yesterday on that very subject:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...availability-projections.187542/#post-2481318​

 

[Ai Print]

Those who complain about film prices ought give consideration to Mirko's post from yesterday on that very subject:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...availability-projections.187542/#post-2481318​

Wow, well I think that is the reality check some might need.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I really miss the days of being able to go to costco and get a 10 pack of superia or gold in 24 exp for like $12

And later getting the film processed in Costco.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Are they?

 

[George Mann]

View attachment 290573

My name isn't Sal!

 

[cmacd123]

While this thread has been a "slice", it is in danger of being relegated to "off topic" purgatory ......

it reached that point a couple of days ago in my book, but fortunately for the topic, I am not a moderator.

 

[pentaxuser]

Those who complain about film prices ought give consideration to Mirko's post from yesterday on that very subject:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...availability-projections.187542/#post-2481318​

The key issue for the future of film is that if we are genuinely not paying enough for film as things stand and need to reconcile ourselves to more price rises that for good reasons will be way beyond inflation, will that result in a drop in demand that will make film even more of a niche product than it is and in that way adversely affect the revenue and profitability of the producers such that we end up in a downward spiral of higher prices and ever lower demand.

I do not consider Kodak b&w film to be now worth the extra price compared to Ilford so it's Ilford for me. I might stretch to a new Kodak b&w if it represented some kind of a real breakthrough in film technology and was head and shoulders above anything else but it is likely to be out of curiosity and not become my bread and butter film

As far as colour is concerned there might be reasons why in certain situations it was the only film to use and I may have no choice but to buy some but it would be something I'll use much less of than might have been the case some years ago when colour film prices were lowerl

There may well be enough pent-up consumer demand that will continue to need satisfying at January 2022 prices to increase Kodak's revenue and sustain future prices increases of this nature but it is surely far from certain.

pentaxuser

 

[ITD]

will that result in a drop in demand

pentaxuser

it will result in a drop in demand amongst those whose film budget is fixed to current cost plus inflation, but (I hope) that’s not the entire market.

Certainly the classic economics mantra is that in a market full of rational consumers increased pricing will decrease demand, but I don’t believe that film shooters are all that rational. I’m certainly not when it comes to film and gear. From memory I think I’m paying about double what I paid 10(?) years ago for some film stocks but I’m not buying less or buying expired or rushing to cheaper stocks. Sure, everyone has a level of price sensitivity but I don’t believe it’s as uniform as some are making out.

At root, I suspect many of the arguments about reduced demand are straw men for a suspicion that Kodak is doing something immoral, and ‘cashing in’ somehow. I don’t believe that, they need to charge a sustainable price if they’re going to keep producing. And if I’m wrong then there was no real market for their product in the first place.

 

[brbo]

Certainly the classic economics mantra is that in a market full of rational consumers increased pricing will decrease demand, but I don’t believe that film shooters are all that rational.

It hasn't got anything to do with (ir)rationality of film shooters. Many goods (not just film) will show minimal demand decrease with even a significant price increase (price elasticity of demand). You can hardly be called irrational if you keep buying/drinking the same amount of water even if its price goes up.

Sure, film has higher price elasticity than water, but you can get a good sense that film will be pretty inelastic when you see what some film cameras are sold for lately. Users of those cameras won't just stop using those cameras and film because film has gone up 20%. The large army of users that were price sensitive have exited the market quite some time ago. Truth is, most of us who notice film getting more and more expensive will b***th about it, but will still buy it...

I also don't expect Kodak pricing themselves out of market where they need to be competitive (BW film). It makes much more sense for Kodak's competitors to follow the price increase than try to increase production (and then additionally sort out logistics) in these times.

 

[ITD]

Better put than me, thanks!

 

[removed account4]

The idea that people will stop using kodak film is kind of funny, film users will keep using films they like. those who do photography seem to have deep pockets for cameras/equipment, materials and processes they enjoy. Some might waiver and switch to digital, or another brand (if there is one) others may even stop buying the $10/bottles of water they consume 5 of daily, or their $30/day coffee habit, or cancel the subscriptions to their favorite websites, or publications. Film might go to $40-50/roll, $600 or 700$ / box there will still be buyers.

It's that terrible.

naa 30 mins or less or its FREE..

 

[BrianShaw]

Time will tell; be patient and observant!

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

When inflation hits for any kind of product, marginal players get eliminated. We're already seeing that with some films being dropped.

If costs continue to increase for manufacturers, they'll have to raise their prices. Higher prices lower demand and less film will be bought. Marginal films will be eliminated. Some manufacturers might have to go as well. That's just the way it is with inflation.

 

[AgX]

Sure, film has higher price elasticity than water, but you can get a good sense that film will be pretty inelastic when you see what some film cameras are sold for lately. Users of those cameras won't just stop using those cameras and film because film has gone up 20%. The large army of users that were price sensitive have exited the market quite some time ago. Truth is, most of us who notice film getting more and more expensive will b***th about it, but will still buy it...

I also don't expect Kodak pricing themselves out of market where they need to be competitive (BW film). It makes much more sense for Kodak's competitors to follow the price increase than try to increase production (and then additionally sort out logistics) in these times.

Why then Mirko is telling us that he only can make Pennies in profit per roll?

 

[NB23]

Not really. I’d venture to say Absolutely not, actually.

Analyze this;

My three favorite films are TMAX400, FP4 and TMAX3200.

What’s in my fridge:
-Just finished 500 rolls of tmx100
-finished a BUNCH of foma 100, 200 and 400.
-12 bulk rolls of Pan-F
-14 bulk rolls of Tri-X
-4 bulk rolls of HP5
-20 rolls of Tmax3200.
-100 rolls 120 HP5.


Extra valuable information:
-I purchased the TMZ3200 when it was on special at 8$
-I purchased the Pan-F when it was cheaper than FP4
-I purchased the tri-x when it was 80$ while TMAX400 was 129$
-I purchased the 120 HP5 wheb it was 6$ a roll VS all the other films were at 8$.

The Magical question to you: why am I not using my favorite films? You must be flabbergasted, aren’t you? Weren’t I supposed to just “buy what I love most”?

The idea that people will stop using kodak film is kind of funny, film users will keep using films they like. those who do photography seem to have deep pockets for cameras/equipment, materials and processes they enjoy. Some might waiver and switch to digital, or another brand (if there is one) others may even stop buying the $10/bottles of water they consume 5 of daily, or their $30/day coffee habit, or cancel the subscriptions to their favorite websites, or publications. Film might go to $40-50/roll, $600 or 700$ / box there will still be buyers.


naa 30 mins or less or its FREE..

 

[brbo]

Why then Mirco is telling us that he only can make Pennies in profit per roll?

Because their costs of producing film are higher than Kodak's (not only mere production of film, they need ongoing investment in equipment, R&D...), their film portfolio is not perceived as equal or better than those from Kodak/Ilford/Fuji, they only play in the segment that is (relatively) highly competitive...? It's not really a rocket science. Big players have a HUGE advantage over relatively new players (massive previous investments only possible in the time when market was much much bigger).

 

[AgX]

Well, if the consumer is not price sensitive as you say, then Mirko could raise his prices, more so as his films do not have direct counterpart in the Kodak range.

 

[brbo]

The Magical question to you: why am I not using my favorite films? You must be flabbergasted, aren’t you? Weren’t I supposed to just “buy what I love most”?

Better question is why aren't you using digital (being so price sensitive as you say you are)?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Here's why prices at the retail level are going up: Retail adds their markup on what they pay the manufacturer which is up hugely.

"Wholesale prices rose 8.6% from a year ago in October, their highest annual pace in records going back 10 years, the Labor Department said Tuesday."
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/09/us-bonds-treasury-yields-fall-ahead-of-inflation-data.html

 

[ITD]

You must be flabbergasted, aren’t you? Weren’t I supposed to just “buy what I love most”?

Not at all. Some people will think like you do, others won’t.

Well, if the consumer is not price sensitive as you say, then Mirko could raise his prices, more so as his films do not have direct counterpart in the Kodak range.

Firstly, it’s not just one consumer, everyone reacts differently. Secondly, Mirko may well be able to raise his prices if he has cover from Kodak raising theirs.

 

[NB23]

Better question is why aren't you using digital (being so price sensitive as you say you are)?

Isn’t it clear? Because I value the quality of film over the quality of digital to the point of actually paying for film over shooting digital for free.

Yes, even the newest Z9 is worthless to me.

 

[brbo]

Well, if the consumer is not price sensitive as you say, then Mirko could raise his prices, more so as his films do not have direct counterpart in the Kodak range.

It's not binary. Did you bother to klick on my link to price elasticity wiki?

Unfortunately for Adox, they don't have many special items that they can expect to support the entire company. I want to say they even have no product that is so special (for enough users). Ask him and he will tell you that they actually DO consider Kodak, Foma, Ilford... as their competition.

 

[NB23]

Not at all. Some people will think like you do, others won’t.


Firstly, it’s not just one consumer, everyone reacts differently. Secondly, Mirko may well be able to raise his prices if he has cover from Kodak raising theirs.

Totally. Just that Jnanz (and a few others) seemed to suggest that kodak lovers would follow kodak’s prices.

I, like maaaany others, am a total whore when it comes to buying film.

 

[removedacct1]

Aren't y'all tired of b*tching about this yet? Seriously.