thoughts on the announced Kodak film price increase?

[Pieter12]

You have to use your imagination.. it’s just to point out that it is a waste of time spent that could be better spent doing something else ..

You made it seem as if you were an inventor millionaire in a previous post/posts not quite sure why someone who lives in a mansion is complaining about film prices…

I am none of the above. And I don't have a spaceship. But the cost of what I consider my art is what it is, and if I have to make sacrifices to cover it, I will.

 

[MattKing]

While I'm quite sure that the return on investment impacts the guidance that the UK pension security authority (the owners of the Kodak Alaris business) gives to Kodak Alaris' Board of Directors, I doubt that the increases in prices talked about in this thread are based on that.
It is important to remember that Kodak Alaris and its international subsidiaries are responsible for the worldwide distribution of Kodak still film products. Which of those many markets are the source for the prices that have been rumoured/reported? I'm not sure we know.
It could very well be that the price changes in the USA will be different from those in the UK which will be different from those in Brazil, etc., etc
All of those various sets of prices are affected by factors like taxes and shipping, as well as the FOB at Building 38 price, which no one pays.

 

[Moose22]

You have to use your imagination.. it’s just to point out that it is a waste of time spent that could be better spent doing something else ..

Dude, that's my entire life in a nutshell.

 

[removed account4]

The greed I am referring is a deeply entrenched institution far removed from casual introspection.

Couldn't it also be that you are removed from their situation, and are blind to the reasons that have caused them to raise their prices ? People on the outside have less than a veneer of understanding of what is actually going on. Press releases never tell what is going on and then there are drips and dribbles from people who have information. That is one of the reasons why people like laser and PE and Matt King have been such valuable assets to this community. They have been able to let us peek behind the red curtain. I can understand why you and others are dissatisfied and disappointed with the price increase but that's just what happens in the real world. Doesn't really seem like greed seeing just a few years ago the spot price of silver was less than $15/troy oz, now it is nearly $25.

Dude, that's my entire life in a nutshell.

 

[BrianShaw]

Couldn't it also be that you are removed from their situation, and are blind to the reasons that have caused them to raise their prices ? People on the outside have less than a veneer of understanding of what is actually going on. Press releases never tell what is going on and then there are drips and dribbles from people who have information. That is one of the reasons why people like laser and PE and Matt King have been such valuable assets to this community. They have been able to let us peek behind the red curtain. I can understand why you and others are dissatisfied and disappointed with the price increase but that's just what happens in the real world. Doesn't really seem like greed seeing just a few years ago the spot price of silver was less than $15/troy oz, now it is nearly $25.

… and all of their insights aren’t coming directly from the executive board room either. All we ever really have is speculation, rumor, and if we get lucky… some true rumor or better informed speculation.

 

[warden]

I would guess that for most participants here photography is an enjoyable way to spend money rather than a way to make money. It's certainly true for me. So I get that spending as little as possible on your avocation makes sense, especially during pandemic times when finances may be challenged. Analogue photography requires consumables, and increasingly aging equipment, to state the obvious.

I understand the price increases and so far have been willing to continue despite the increased costs, with the one exception of e6. I love the stuff, and the unparalleled experience of viewing 6x7 positives, but I've been priced out. I have some E6 in the freezer that I will work through, and then I'm done I guess. Remember a few years back when B&H was selling short dated or newly expired Provia? I'm glad I took advantage of it at the time. I think I have thirty rolls or so, and need to plan a project to make some room in the freezer. My exit rolls. ;-)

 

[George Mann]

Couldn't it also be that you are removed from their situation, and are blind to the reasons that have caused them to raise their prices ?

I understand the economics/politics behind such decisions, and the fact that it is at least partially driven by factors outside of their direct control.

 

[brbo]

You really don’t need to defend yourself and justify your participation to a non-participant who posts less than 1/month over the past 20 years.

Quite!

And if you absolutely insist on taking my comment dead serious.... Maybe people that shop around for lowest prices on film (or whatever they do in their own time) also don't need to defend themselves?

 

[BrianShaw]

Quite!

And if you absolutely insist on taking my comment dead serious.... Maybe people that shop around for lowest prices on film (or whatever they do in their own time) also don't need to defend themselves?

... but the mathematical (arithmetic, really) analysis often holds up. A lot of time and effort and sometimes gas/petrol shopping around to save a few dollars-and-cents. Nobody is telling anyone not to do that... I think all that has been said is that it doesn't always add up. I have that discussion on almost a daily basis with my wife but she puts value on "the hunt", which I do not. It's not about defending any approach; it's about understanding the potentially available options.

 

[brbo]

How else am I supposed to take your rude comment?
SSDD

I'm sorry if you see my comment as rude. It was certainly not meant to be rude. But I see that one could read it as rude. Oh, btw, your comment (that I referred to) could then also be viewed as rude. Probably not just that one.

But that will be that on this topic from me, I'm not willing to increase my low post counter that I'm so proud of on stuff that doesn't include rant over yet another Fuji film discontinuation.

... but the mathematical (arithmetic, really) analysis often holds up. A lot of time and effort and sometimes gas/petrol shopping around to save a few dollars-and-cents. Nobody is telling anyone not to do that... I think all that has been said is that it doesn't always add up. I have that discussion on almost a daily basis with my wife but she puts value on "the hunt", which I do not. It's not about defending any approach; it's about understanding the potentially available options.

Yes, but only when you look at it partially. On aggregate though, price shopping is very efficient and can bring huge savings to consumers as a whole. Where you and jnantz see irrationality of price shoppers the market sees the force that pushes down the price equilibrium in local and global markets.

 

[removed account4]

I'm sorry if you see my comment as rude. It was certainly not meant to be rude. But I see that one could read it as rude. Oh, btw, your comment (that I referred to) could then also be viewed as rude. Probably not just that one.

But that will be that on this topic from me, I'm not willing to increase my low post counter that I'm so proud of on stuff that doesn't include rant over yet another Fuji film discontinuation.

I am not sure how what I said could be misconstrued as a rude post. sorry if I offended bargain hunters.

I
Yes, but only when you look at it partially. On aggregate though, price shopping is very efficient and can bring huge savings to consumers as a whole. Where you and jnantz see irrationality of price shoppers the market sees the force that pushes down the price equilibrium in local and global markets.

I never said it was irrational. I said that often times one spends so much time hunting for bargains the time spent outstrips the bargain, or the bargain was no bargain at all. Google "Chinese Amidol" ... advertised as a bargain, but for some ... more trouble than the savings.
good luck with your lurking and selective rants

 

[Sirius Glass]

If people added up all the hours they spent typing 29,668 posts on Photrio alone...

Posh! I have more posts that that. It just shows that I like to help people. Those who do not post just like to take from others.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Forgive me if this has already been posted.... https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/...b-TZ17SLEQxWpESuZuoq1daUd9OccCGlWnLHd-QmzfkKY

 

[BrianShaw]

Yes, but only when you look at it partially. On aggregate though, price shopping is very efficient and can bring huge savings to consumers as a whole. Where you and jnantz see irrationality of price shoppers the market sees the force that pushes down the price equilibrium in local and global markets.

Irrationality??? That’s quite a negative reflection of what was actually written. Folks should do price-shopping, but also know how to balance that activity. Doesn’t require a detailed cost-benefit analysis in most cases. The more one price-shops the easier/faster it is to do that c-b analysis. Avoiding analysis paralysis should be the goal.

 

[Pieter12]

I'm sorry if you see my comment as rude. It was certainly not meant to be rude. But I see that one could read it as rude. Oh, btw, your comment (that I referred to) could then also be viewed as rude. Probably not just that one.

But that will be that on this topic from me, I'm not willing to increase my low post counter that I'm so proud of on stuff that doesn't include rant over yet another Fuji film discontinuation.



Yes, but only when you look at it partially. On aggregate though, price shopping is very efficient and can bring huge savings to consumers as a whole. Where you and jnantz see irrationality of price shoppers the market sees the force that pushes down the price equilibrium in local and global markets.

Some pays the price for "low prices" --sometimes it is efficiencies, automation and bulk buying, but most of the factors of selling at low prices are cutting corners, paying less to the people who produce the items and work in retail selling those bargains.

 

[removed account4]

snip snip snip

And I don't have a spaceship

too bad film users can't petition the rocket jockeys to preserve not only newspapers but world cultural heritage (film).
anyone know if mr musk or mr besos* have a love of film or film cameras ? I know science and tech geeks sometimes have an affection for the opposite
like barrel calculators, slide rules and carburated vehicles...
* kind of funny my spell check changes his name to pesos ..

 

[pentaxuser]

It is a pity that every thread that runs for much longer than a page or so and excites interest because it is one that materially affects a lot of people, usually ends up as a series of conflicts between individuals and ceases to be an attempt to obtain as much information as possible to try and work out where truth lies

However every so often you get a contribution from a member that helps to provide information and should get the thread back on track. In this case it is Andrew O'Neill's post. It gives us a link that is full of information which we can look at and discuss. Something to get our teeth into as opposed to them being into each other

My concerns/queries after reading the article is: 1. Does it give us reasons for the current increase other than "pandemic problems? It is the case that current shortages have resulted in large increases in prices such as fuel, be that petrol, gas, electricity to name a few. However if this is the only change from the pre-pandemic time which was only March 2020 then I have seen nothing in anything I have read that explains why these very large increases are here to stay permanently. So is the current increase in film prices pandemic-ted only or in fact just another stage of planned increases that are needed to enable Kodak to continue its re-investment plan necessary for it to meet the recent excess of demand v supply of Kodak film? Does the excess of demand v supply cover all Kodak film , b&w as well as colour? If Kodak believes it had to act as it has, can it and will it offer any hope that this is the last increase that is likely to be much if any above the rise in real wages? If people are given no comfort in this respect then they can easily go into a state of despair and can then change their buying behaviour permanently to the detriment of Kodak

2. The conclusions in the article would seem to suggest that colour films are now more expensive in real terms but not in b&w. Tri-X since 1968 is pretty much the same and going back to 1952 is actually cheaper now such

The issue it seems to me with point 2 is that we have experienced a period of 50 years where our standard of living has risen a lot because our disposable income has risen in real terms. Kodak's problem is that it is selling essentially the same product it did back when it was much cheaper so quite large increases over a short period is likely to create an adverse reaction from consumers. That may be a verbal protest, such as we are seeing here that remains only that or a "vote with the wallet" that might help cure the excess demand over supply problem but won't help Kodak

I do not believe we, on Photrio, can predict the price increase on the general film buying consumer public based on ourselves. We are too small in number and only a fraction of us has responded anyway. By and large we are the "converted", the long term film addicts if you like, with probably too much invested in film to accurately reflect the position of the general film buying public but what I do feel is the case is that large price rises and frequency of such rises are likely to have an adverse reaction, especially if people believe there is no end to the price rises.

Will the reaction be large enough to affect revenue adversely and if so, will it blow over quickly enough to not be a price rise too much for Kodak's future?

It seems a big gamble to me

pentaxuser

 

[DMJ]

"Kodak Moments successfully integrated the Film business in FY21 ensuring we remain the market leader in providing consumer and professional photographic film and one-time-use cameras for traditional silver halide image capture. The continued resurgence of interest in film photography in combination with selective price increases ensured that revenue exceeded the previous fiscal year." p15.

https://www.kodakalaris.com/getmedi...66bc2/FY21-Accounts-Final-and-Signed.pdf.aspx

 

[Don_ih]

It really doesn't matter that film is around as relatively expensive as it was 50 years ago. There was no digital 50 years ago. That is what stands as a real price comparison for casual film users and full-fledged photographers.

 

[pentaxuser]

Real disposable income has been increasing? Good one.

I am not sure if your question is rhetorical indicates that n my statement was so self evident that it was redundant or indicates that you do not feel this is true but assuming it was a question then I'd say that over the last 50 years I believe that all statisticians would agree that this is true. At the risk of turning this into a specific argument about goods and prices and veering the discussion down a blind alley which I do not want,, I'll give as an example car ownership. How many families had at least 2 if not 3 cars in 1970 compared to now. How much of average family income was devoted to say food in 1970 compared to nowadays

pentaxuser

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...I'll give as an example car ownership. How many families had at least 2 if not 3 cars in 1970 compared to now. How much of average family income was devoted to say food in 1970 compared to nowadays

You must be doing quite well there in Daventry. There are many families in the U.S. (and around the world) whose financial status is exactly opposite of the rosy picture you paint.

Please don't misinterpret. My family is not one of those. We're very comfortable. Nonetheless, our lifestyle isn't much different than it was in 1975 when I married and left the parental home. The only thing substantive that's changed is we own our own house now rather than renting an apartment when starting out. I'd even say my film expenditures (in inflated dollars) are similar.

 

[eli griggs]

If Kodak wants to raise colour film prices, I'm sure the Chinese and others will be more than happy to improve their products, at lower price points.

Pricing yourself out of a market is slow suicide but Kodak seems bent on doing just that, by catering to a younger generation that is willing to play alone, for now.

IMO.

 

[Pieter12]

by catering to a younger generation that is willing to play alone, for now.

?

 

[markjwyatt]

If Kodak wants to raise colour film prices, I'm sure the Chinese and others will be more than happy to improve their products, at lower price points.

Pricing yourself out of a market is slow suicide but Kodak seems bent on doing just that, by catering to a younger generation that is willing to play alone, for now.

IMO.

I don't think so. They are taking the premium market, and if their sales start dropping below the capacity they are producing, they will lower prices. Ilford is also taking a bit of a premium (and worth it), but not to the extent that Kodak is. Fuji is also taking a premium, and has no qualms about it. It si all math, and with film popularity (presumably) increasing, I am sure it is not a huge risk.

 

[Mike Lopez]

I am not sure if your question is rhetorical indicates that n my statement was so self evident that it was redundant or indicates that you do not feel this is true but assuming it was a question then I'd say that over the last 50 years I believe that all statisticians would agree that this is true. At the risk of turning this into a specific argument about goods and prices and veering the discussion down a blind alley which I do not want,, I'll give as an example car ownership. How many families had at least 2 if not 3 cars in 1970 compared to now. How much of average family income was devoted to say food in 1970 compared to nowadays

pentaxuser

According to some talking heads, we’re all apparently breaking the bank on milk these days. Apparently that’s a 2021 problem that wasn’t the case in 1970, when Nixon was president.