thoughts on the announced Kodak film price increase?

[flavio81]

(Moderator's Note - two related threads merged into thread in Industry News)

didnt see a post about it here, unless I missed it. third time in 3 years. I know a lot of products have increased in price during the pandemic, but is this now going to be a yearly occurrence? time to make a larger purchase than usual before jan 2022? a 50% increase in tmax 100, really?

This document could have been made by anyone sitting at a computer. It is written in british English so if it was an attempt to fake an official Kodak announcement, it has failed.

 

[pentaxuser]

Well, the tmax 100 just is an anomaly. .

S o any idea as to why Tmax 100 is just an anomaly?

Thanks

To the thread's participants generally now . We seem to trot out the same old argument that film was much more expensive in the 1950s/60s or whatever timescale is chosen but what relevance does this really have? Colour TVs are incredibly cheap v what they cost in the late 1960s/70s in the U.K. as well but would that justify a trend back towards that era?. I imagine we'd want to know why this is the case, wouldn't we if there were a similar upsurge in TV prices.

Almost everything 40 years ago required proportionally more of our disposable income than it does today. The argument that it costs no more or even less than it did all those years ago in terms of disposable income and that we should be grateful that product X, in this case film should be made at all is hardly a logical argument. We judge price on the reasons surrounding that price or at least we should.


So can I ask at what price should we cease to be grateful for film being made- $20 a roll, $30 a roll or where and at that "cease to be grateful level", can I ask those who nominate that point in $ that they estimate how many films will be sold at that level and do they believe that film is sustainable at that level of demand?

pentaxuser

 

[cmacd123]

This document could have been made by anyone sitting at a computer. It is written in british English so if it was an attempt to fake an official Kodak announcement, it has failed.

Several of the "News" items from that particular site seem to come out of thin air with no supporting information. I also laugh at the Statement about "Lomography" being a film manufacturer.

 

[Moose22]

Delta 400 is magnificent.

From a 120 roll film image on Delta 400, Kodak Medalist II used: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51484378840_48cf078231_k.jpg

I second this. After a year I finally got around to trying it last month when testing the c330 I bought. i was REALLY pleased. Immediately shot a second roll and ordered more. This is from the first:

I'm playing with tmax right now, and enjoyed the first rolls I tried, but Delta 100 in 135 and 400 in 120 have both really impressed me. Enough I may just stick with using only those two for a while.

Basically, I want Kodak to do well. I love their film, especially Portra, and I want them to keep profitable and keep plenty of film stocks in the marketplace, but for B&W Ilford's offerings sure do seem good for the relative price.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Wowser! Ektachome will be $23.99/roll. We are lucky to have it at all; still, at some point people will stop buying it.

I shoot slides exclusively and have stopped buying it years ago, when E-6 films started to cost 15€ for the roll. Too damn high a price for a yield of ~6 keepers per roll in a hobby setting.

I learned the art of BW Reversal instead and keep shooting BW slides - yield is better too! I can have 2-3 good BW films for the price of a single Ektachrome or Velvia, or Provia - so no color for me.

[rant]By the looks of it, Kodak is eager to shitfuck itself into oblivion and I could totally watch this spectacle playing out in real-time, and can see with my mind's eye Fuji frantically taking notes in the first row.[/rant]

 

[Don_ih]

Kodak builds its profit by raising prices instead of producing and selling more. As for everyone else, if Kodak raises prices on everything, everyone else can raise their prices by roughly the same amount and still remain lower-priced.
Only some people will always buy film. Everyone else will eventually be chipped away by the combination of high priced film and untrustworthy equipment.

 

[AgX]

That's wishful thinking that ignores the photochemical reality of ECN-2. Orwo/Inoviscoat are already able to make C-41 (CD-4) compatible materials, and by getting ECN-2 (CD-3) on the market it opens up both their ability to make other CD-3 based materials (E-6) & possibly also the last critical steps to making a 'good' C-41 as opposed to the incremental steps that have been turned into various Lomo products. And you'll need to reposition your thinking as to price - it's far more likely to be closely competitive with Kodak than significantly cheaper - Kodak have major institutional making/ coating advantages (e.g. can coat in a single pass through 2 coating stations, driers etc - the Inoviscoat setup requires a double pass through the machine to deliver the same number of layers).

The moment that there actually is a profit to make (at a foreseeable risk) and that there are still people around knowledgable there still are firms around able to offer a competing film. And I am not even thinking of Inoviscoat in first instance, though their business set-up has changed meanwhile.
But a firm being able to crank out products from a running production has an advantage over a new started production, even with designs ready in the drawer.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Saw this news by Kosmofoto (Stephen Dowling) posted on Twitter. Does anyone know about it? There is no source.

https://kosmofoto.com/2021/10/kodak-alaris-announces-significant-price-increases-for-january-2022/

film is expensive.good film is more expensive and prices will go up further before they stop, I predict. W e have no choice and are still lucky to get film at all.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I don't buy all that "we're lucky to have X at all". It's a market, not a charity. If Kodak wants to price themselves into aristocracy, I can watch that and hope that others will keep more clearer head.

 

[pentaxuser]

Well, good and rigorous as our discussion has been on the rights and wrongs of this announced Kodak price increase it appears we are no nearer authenticating it.

To DMJ, the originator can I ask did Kosmofoto(Stephen Dowling state or at least hint that this was a genuine Kodak doc or Kosmofoto's typed summary from a genuine Kodak doc it has been sent or otherwise received from a reliable source within Kodak?


Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Kosmo Foto]

Well, good and rigorous as our discussion has been on the rights and wrongs of this announced Kodak price increase it appears we are no nearer authenticating it.

To DMJ, the originator can I ask did Kosmofoto(Stephen Dowling state or at least hint that this was a genuine Kodak doc or Kosmofoto's typed summary from a genuine Kodak doc it has been sent or otherwise received from a reliable source within Kodak?


Thanks

pentaxuser

Everything in that article came from an official Kodak Alaris source who did not wish to be quoted. I had a 20-minute phone conversation with them on Friday. The document came from one of the biggest UK film distributors, which was sent to me by a friend who's a film retailer (who obviously didn't want to be quoted). Since the story published, I've seen other documents shared on Instagram from Australian and UK dealers.

I understand people want to see quoted names and/or links, but this wasn't possible for this story given the conditions. I stand by everything reported in it however.

Cheers

S

 

[pentaxuser]

Here's the section from the Kosmofoto website:

Kodak Alaris has announced a “significant” price increase affecting all its film products in January 2022.

Kosmo Foto was shown examples of new pricing from one UK distributor on Thursday (28 October). The rises were confirmed by Kodak Alaris on Friday.

The price rises affect all consumer and professional Kodak films, as well as single-use cameras. Most films will see price rises of at least 20%, Kosmo Foto has been told.

The new price increases follow others at the beginning of this year and 2020.

Kosmo Foto understands the price rises are primarily due to increases in materials and manufacturing costs, logistics and the impact of inflation in various parts of the world following the Covid pandemic. Increases in shipping costs and limited availability of shipping containers has also affected the movement of components to make the film.

I have added the "bold" section as that seems key to establishing the authenticity. Clearly it is claiming that KA announced this on Friday last but it doesn't say to whom

The last para of the Kodak or should I say KA announcement blames Covid but realistically unless we have to live forever with the Covid "hangover" conditions then they will go away and things return to normal, won't they?

So such price increases of this magnitude are temporary, aren't they and the only real thing to be concerned about is: How long is temporary.

Or so it seems to me

pentaxuser

 

[faberryman]

I don't shoot much color film so I don't keep up with prices, but I wanted to see the effect of the approximately 20% price increase on Kodak Color Plus and went to B&H. B&H lists it at $6.99/roll so a 20% increase would make it $8.39. That probably won't kill the film resurgence. However, it is out of stock and won't be available until April 4, 2022, so five months down the line. I am sure if you hunt around you can find it, and find it cheaper, elsewhere, but it does sound a little problematic if B&H can't get it. Ektar 100 is in stock at $13.99/roll or $16.79/roll after the increase. Portra 160 is in stock at $9.99/roll in a 5-pack or $11.99 after increase. If you can't get Color Plus, are you going to spring for Ektar or Portra? Is Fuji in your future? I have never shot Fuji color negative film so I don't know what the Fuji comparables to Color Plus, Ektar, and Portra are.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I meant to add that's not true of the B&W market with regards to Kodak. They've almost killed demand for their sheet films here in the UK with their prices to the extent than few suppliersnow one carry or even list their 10x8 Tmax or Tri-X films any longer but they do stock Ilford, Foma, Adox, and more recently Shangai.

I had a discussion about this with my supplierquite recently and they felt Kodak had priced themselves out of the B&W market, they don't stock items that won't sell.

Ian

Don't UK import duties really hurt Kodak compared to Ilford?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I seem to recall that Kodak Alaris pays a 3rd party to confection all the sheet film. Is this accurate?? The retail photo market in the US is so distorted thanks to the decades of zero tax collection by B&H and other online companies. B&H, Freestyle, Unique Photo and others enjoy volume rebates etc.
I buy Ilford and Foma sheet film, Tri-X is great film, but it's just not feasible for me. I have a 22 cu ft refrigerator freezer absolutely full of film and paper, and I still am buying new.

Internet sales used to be not charged sales tax. But that's ended for a couple of years. B and H has been charging sales tax on film web sales even to other states.

 

[removed account4]

Well, good and rigorous as our discussion has been on the rights and wrongs of this announced Kodak price increase it appears we are no nearer authenticating it.

the author authenticated it.
not sure what the rights and wrongs are? raising prices are right or wrong?
im sure its right for EK/KA, otherwise they wouldn't have done it, right?

 

[faberryman]

im sure its right for EK/KA, otherwise they wouldn't have done it, right?

Nope. They could have made an error in judgement on how the increased prices will affect loyalty and demand. Potentially pricing yourself out of the market might be a mistake. I jumped ship to Ilford a long time ago. Color negative shooters may jump ship to Fuji.

 

[BrianShaw]

No. They could have made an error in judgement on how the increased prices will affect loyalty and demand. Potentially pricing yourself out of the market might be a mistake.

It’s almost as bad as the restaurants that now charge for the (formerly) free bread.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

the author authenticated it.
not sure what the rights and wrongs are? raising prices are right or wrong?
im sure its right for EK/KA, otherwise they wouldn't have done it, right?

There are no rights or wrongs. The market tends to determine prices. Sellers raise their prices as high as they think buyers will pay. If sales drop too much, then they're too high and they'll lower them. It's a balancing act.

Of course, inflation has driven prices higher because material and labor costs have gone up for manufacturers. They have to pass along those additional costs. This is why inflation hurts the economy. As prices are forced up, fewer people buy. Profits margins for manufacturers shrink. They produce less and lay off employees. All that hurts economies. If they can't sell enough film, then they drop certain lines as we see happening with Fujifilm.

 

[removed account4]

Nope. They could have made an error in judgement on how the increased prices will affect loyalty and demand. Potentially pricing yourself out of the market might be a mistake. I jumped ship to Ilford a long time ago. Color negative shooters may jump ship to Fuji.

maybe? not for me to decide. but they seem to think it was the right decision, just like the other IDK 100 times they have raised the price of film and materials in the past 35 years. people don't like it? then they should say so with their money and bit coin and not buy it. I already said so IDK 15 years ago, I can't afford anything kodak sells.

 

[Arcadia4]

Don't UK import duties really hurt Kodak compared to Ilford?

UK import duties on film are currently 0%, i can't recall the pre brexit rate but 5% at most.. There is 20% vat (sales tax) still but thats true on all sales except food.
About 3 yrs ago kodak prices were still fairly comparable to Ilford.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

UK import duties on film are currently 0%, i can't recall the pre brexit rate but 5% at most.. There is 20% vat (sales tax) still but thats true on all sales except food.
About 3 yrs ago kodak prices were still fairly comparable to Ilford.

Thanks for that info. Could Kodak costs be higher first because it's made in America where labor and other costs are higher to manufacture? Second, their film is rated very highly such as Tmax and Portra compared to other manufacturers. . Ektar and Ektachrome are also rated very highly. Are these films worth the extra cost? Also, each film has particular features that may not be duplicated by other films. So if you like a particular way a film handles BW tones or color, for example, you're willing to pay more for it.

 

[Paul Howell]

When traveling or an important shoot I use Tmax and Ektar, otherwise I use Foma and Pro Image or Kodak Gold. If Kodak prices climb much higher might need to think about Ilford.

 

[removedacct1]

Did any of you actually READ this?? https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/2021/10/film-price-analysis/

From the above article, I quote: "Put into the perspective of inflation and buying power, a 135 / 36-exposure roll of Kodak Tri-X cost 11.60 USD (1.15 USD) in 1956, and a roll of Kodacolor film even hit at over 22 USD (2.60 USD) back in the “golden age.” The current price of Tri-X, depending on reseller, is somewhere between 9.95 USD (B&H) and 9.09 USD (Freestyle) and thus roughly equals the pricing level of 1968, when Tri-X first flew to the moon on Apollo 8. Coupled to the 2020 US mean income, a roll of Tri-X is still at 0.012%, and thus not substantially more expensive than it was in the past."

 

[removed account4]

Did any of you actually READ this?? https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/2021/10/film-price-analysis/

Hi Paul
I read it, I thought it was pretty straight forward in its analysis. I don't think I could have afforded film back in the golden age either
John