Thinking of investing in $5,000 - $10,000 of film. Suggestions?

[BrianShaw]

Are you going to answer questions straight out or continue going around in circles? Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Just provide the proof that film that has been frozen for 15, 20, 30 years (I've observed how your figures are now all over the place) is entirely useable and that the methods and means by which is is processed are available. You have not provided any proof, just bluff and bluster.

Relax, Gary... Andre doesn't have empirical data. You know it, I know it, and he knows it. He has his expereince and his beliefs. I've looked for such studies and never found any. If they exist they have managed to allude my semi-interested searches and are not easy to find.

 

[BrianShaw]

Here's something for you. You need to determine if frozen storage of exposed film is the same as storage of unexposed film.

http://www.nps.gov/museum/publications/conserveogram/14-10.pdf

Dead Link Removed

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/e30/e30.pdf

 

[Stephanie Brim]

hi andre

i have worked it out, and don't shoot color film for the most part, when i do it is numbery.
if i want "authentic" color, i will do tri color, not color film and use the doohicky on my desk
to compile the image .. or i'll hand color a b/w print ...

in 10-15 years time i will fall back on something i was doing in the 1980s (and never stopped) ..
when i was in college i taught myself to coat plates ... no expensive workshops,
no internet, just a 1904 annual with a recipe ...

besides, i find it much easier to coat glass or paper, than shooting expired film ...


do you currently shoot expired film, film that was cold stored for 10-20years ?
or are you just expecting that your film will be good without a "dry run" ..

I like the look of hand coloring more than color film anyway. I'll join you in that.

 

[jp498]

In normal activities, I'm big on empirical data. In photography, I get away from that.

I don' t have a densitometer or do comparisons. I don't make plots or test charts. I've got film that I like and that works for me, and I think it will be useful and more expensive in the event of supply problems. I take film out of the freezer as needed and use it for making photos that I mostly enjoy.

I haven't seen the news that John Sexton is stockpiling it, but if he is, that's very telling. He's likely the last person to worry about the cost as he's effectively PR for Kodak and I imagine Kodak takes care of him. If he's stockpiling it, it's because he likes it and fears changes from Kodak's uncertain future.

 

[Andre Noble]

Are you going to answer questions straight out or continue going around in circles?

Are you really that lost my brother?

 

[removed account4]

Are you really that lost my brother?

andre

i don't think he is lost, at all.
he just wants "data" when it probably doesn't exist.
especially when all the manufacturers have drilled into people's heads
to only shoot fresh film, buy fresh film &c.

the funnything is that you could have some great film
but not all the film will be great even from the same purchase,
some may end up being crap and youwon't know until you spend your energy exposing it
and then processing it.

the great film hoard reminds me of the tulip frenzy of the 1600s

if it makes you happy, that is all that counts !

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Are you really that lost my brother?

Andre, you don't need to question me: the spotlight is on you and what you are saying. The question posed to you was easy enough: are you going to show us the results of the film you ferreted away in 1979-81 or so, or have you not been around that long?

Please only corroborate your statements with evidence for the benefit of the wider audience here. I have asked that, you have not provided. Nothing sinister about that, only drilling for facts in a welter of flash wordiness. I have done this thousands of times before in analysis to sift fact from fiction.

 

[Andre Noble]

Andre, you don't need to question me: the spotlight is on you and what you are saying.... Please only corroborate your statements with evidence for the benefit of the wider audience here. I have asked that, you have not provided. Nothing sinister about that, only drilling for facts in a welter of flash wordiness. I have done this thousands of times before in analysis to sift fact from fiction.

Dude, I am going to bring my New England frankness to the table and say that you sound like you're a few cans short of a six pack. I wouldn't want you beside me in a fox hole. i hope you have a super high IQ - higher than mine (140) - because you'll need the extra processing power to make up for your lack of intuition and imagination.

if it makes you happy, that is all that counts !

Actually, I'm not happy at all about it. Financially I was not in a great position to take on more debt- despite my BH address, I am squarely a middle class renter. I took credit-union loans and stockpiled out of passion for the film medium. I did it with great reservation. But it's the ONLY thing to do right now. I did not stockpile high ISO films. I just need to add some 35mm color and 8x10 TXP and I'll be set.

Film photography for me is about the manipulation of time. Stretching time and events out, delaying events, appreciating events when one is emotionally and spiritually ready to assimilate them. Afterall, time is an illusion.

 

[removed account4]

Dude, I am going to bring my New England frankness to the table and say that you sound like you're a few cans short of a six pack. I wouldn't want you beside me in a fox hole. i hope you have a super high IQ - higher than mine (140) - because you'll need the extra processing power to make up for your lack of intuition and imagination.



Actually, I'm not happy at all about it. Financially I was not in a great position to take on more debt- despite my BH address, I am squarely a middle class renter. I took credit-union loans and stockpiled out of passion for the film medium. I did it with great reservation. But it's the ONLY thing to do right now. I did not stockpile high ISO films. I just need to add some 35mm color and 8x10 TXP and I'll be set.

Film photography for me is about the manipulation of time. Stretching time and events out, delaying events, appreciating events when one is emotionally and spiritually ready to assimilate them. Afterall, time is an illusion.

hey andre

i don't think it has anything to do with intuition or imagination.
it is a GAMBLE that the film you buy today will still be good 10, 15 or 30years down the road.
you used 20 years and georg16nik said 30 years ...

more people are interested in a sure thing ( tested methods &c ) not "feelings"
and earlier in this thread you said you "felt" long stored film would still be good.
i can understand where PDJ stands. he wants to see your tests and results from your dry run.
i know i wouldn't invest much money in a film hoarding dream / feeling.
storing film is more in the film investment ... its equipment and energy ... ( &c. )
people might think you are a sandwich short of a picnic for investing a ton of money in
something that is unproven and untested, just a "feeling" ( i'm from new england as well )

good idea or bad, it really doesn't matter much ...
i hope you can burn through all your film before the color is impossible to process
(unless you plan on using drug store products like hair dye ) ...
AND your b/w is 1/4 its original speed with fog thicker than pea soup!
you might consider getting a jump on it by learning how to process your film in ansco 130.
i know, people think it is a print developer ... it might take a little tweaking but it will help with 30 year fog.
i've processed shelf stored 20 year old film in it with very little almost NO fog ...
some people suggest freezing GLYCIN works, i'd work on that too ... cause some say it loses life ... ( always naysayers ! )
personally, i would process it all in coffee with a teaspoon of ansco 130 in it
it will process better than conventional developers and coffee will still be around ( you will already be hoarding ansco 130 )
if you can't find the coffee, ask me in 30 years i have about 65lbs in my garage i will be happy to sell you some of it on ebay

if you need info/proof about the developers, let me know,
i have 12 years of ansco130 film and about 7 years of coffee-film
all with non frozen, shelf stored expired film

 

[georg16nik]

jnanian, most of the film available on today's market is cut from frozen master rolls.
You guys act like the film You buy new today, with exp date 2015 was made yesterday
Average Joe's ISO 100 films keep well.
Films like Agfa microfilms (PET base) never had expiry date, it was well known in the 80's that those film can hold at least 20 years at reasonable room conditions.
Adox CMS 20 (made by AGFA) does not have an expiry date on the box.
Anybody cared to ask Adox or AGFA about evidence?
The interested parties could read the appropriate ISO standards http://www.iso.org/

 

[Roger Thoms]

Don't see the big deal. Try out the different films, decide which you like and stock pile as much as you are comfortable with. Then as you use the film replenish as needed. If you find you aren't using the film in a reasonable amount of time sell off any excess. If they stop manufacturing the film then you will probably be more carefully about what you shoot with it.

Just spent a grand on sheet film, 5x7, WP, and 8x10 and I can tell you that's not much film. So 5-10 grand doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

Didn't Michael Smith have a walk-in freezer installed to store film and paper in? He might be someone to talk to about long term storage of film.

Roger

 

[polyglot]

Guys,

I think this thread needs to end. You're all coming from different assumptions about and requirements for why one might stockpile film and talking straight past each other. It's pointless and just makes the lot of you angry. If the OP wants to stockpile, that's his prerogative and the merits of doing so are pretty irrelevant; I think they could be considered thoroughly warned as to the risks of keeping film by now.

Go forth and rotate your stocks (whether they be 10 years or 10 days worth) through your cameras please before someone has a stroke.

 

[BrianShaw]

If the OP wants to stockpile, that's his prerogative and the merits of doing so are pretty irrelevant.

How true.

 

[removed account4]

jnanian, most of the film available on today's market is cut from frozen master rolls.
You guys act like the film You buy new today, with exp date 2015 was made yesterday
Average Joe's ISO 100 films keep well.
Films like Agfa microfilms (PET base) never had expiry date, it was well known in the 80's that those film can hold at least 20 years at reasonable room conditions.
Adox CMS 20 (made by AGFA) does not have an expiry date on the box.
Anybody cared to ask Adox or AGFA about evidence?
The interested parties could read the appropriate ISO standards http://www.iso.org/

dude

i dont' question whether or not master rolls are kept frozen, or if microfilms have an expiration date ..
what i question is that consumer grade color or b/w photography film that is frozen "today by you and me"
(obviously not the same way the manufacturers are freezing theirs)
is going to be usable in 30 years.

maybe it will be .. maybe it won't ..
(where's christopher lloyd when you need him !)

i'd rather just buy a bunch of film and use it, and replenish it when i get low
than be pissed off in 30years .. i guess your stomach is stronger than mine

 

[georg16nik]

dude

i dont' question whether or not master rolls are kept frozen, or if microfilms have an expiration date ..
what i question is that consumer grade color or b/w photography film that is frozen "today by you and me"
(obviously not the same way the manufacturers are freezing theirs)
is going to be usable in 30 years.

maybe it will be .. maybe it won't .....

jnanian, dude, ISO 18928 defines storage practices for unprocessed photographic films and papers, consumer or not.
A good starting point.

... i guess your stomach is stronger than mine

You need health tips?
Natrum phosphoricum 9c, once every other month for 1 year.

 

[StoneNYC]

even i would never buy film from the freezer of someone
who claimed his / her film was frozen in a controlled environment
for 30 +/- years ... maybe if it was just "given" to me i'd use it
but probably not .. seeing in 30 years time cosmic + solar radiation
will probably increase &c to change good to bad ( even quicker than it already does )
if you bought a mountain of AZO paper, that would make it in full glory
seeing it is pretty much the only stuff that seems to last, and last, and last ...

this whole conversation is kind of funny, seeing
the world is supposed to end in just a few weeks
so i am just going to shoot my expired film and paper
like it's 1999

Wait the world is ending AGAIN?? Why this time??


~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BrianShaw]

ISO 18928 defines storage practices for unprocessed photographic films and papers, consumer or not.
A good starting point.

Interesting. Thanks for that reference.

... and it only costs CHF58! Since I don't have a copy yet, does it specify storage durations?

 

[removed account4]

jnanian, dude, ISO 18928 defines storage practices for unprocessed photographic films and papers, consumer or not.
A good starting point.

i wasn't able to download and read the tech publication.
does it say that unprocessed film and paper have a superior shelf life
of 30 years if stored in whatever conditions they recommend or that
quality diminishes after a certain amount of time ?
it is a well known and undisputed fact that cosmic radiation destroys film
does this publication say the opposite ?

i have never suggested that film and paper won't survive a long storage
in a cold environment, or even in a bedroom drawer ..
i have processed exposed film that was 80 years old
and regularly expose and use film that is 10+ years expired ...
often times the development procedures is not "standard"
like processing "new" film in d76 or HC110 to get an acceptable image ...
and most of the time people question what the point is because
it is like guessing what is inside the black box ...

the problem with this thread is that some people just want examples and proof
of film that was stored ( for a long long time ), exposed and processed
so they can judge for themselves whether or not the quality is still there,
and instead they are given storage tips ... or info on film that was not even
close to 15 or 30 years expired ... there is a huge difference between 4-7 years and 15-20

You need health tips?
Natrum phosphoricum 9c, once every other month for 1 year.

thats ok, it was just an idiom, i'm good without big pharma

 

[StoneNYC]

i wasn't able to download and read the tech publication.
does it say that unprocessed film and paper have a superior shelf life
of 30 years if stored in whatever conditions they recommend or that
quality diminishes after a certain amount of time ?
it is a well known and undisputed fact that cosmic radiation destroys film
does this publication say the opposite ?

i have never suggested that film and paper won't survive a long storage
in a cold environment, or even in a bedroom drawer ..
i have processed exposed film that was 80 years old
and regularly expose and use film that is 10+ years expired ...
often times the development procedures is not "standard"
like processing "new" film in d76 or HC110 to get an acceptable image ...
and most of the time people question what the point is because
it is like guessing what is inside the black box ...

the problem with this thread is that some people just want examples and proof
of film that was stored ( for a long long time ), exposed and processed
so they can judge for themselves whether or not the quality is still there,
and instead they are given storage tips ... or info on film that was not even
close to 15 or 30 years expired ... there is a huge difference between 4-7 years and 15-20




thats ok, it was just an idiom, i'm good without big pharma

Give me a week and I'll post some images from film that expired in 1967 that WASN'T frozen... That should be worst case scenario


~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Andre Noble]

hey andre

It is a GAMBLE that the film you buy today will still be good 10, 15 or 30years down the road.

BINGO!

I feel good about my odds that in 20 years time my Velvia 50 and Kodak Portra 160 will be rendering beautiful, highly useable images.

To shed more light: http://healthcare.webplanet.us/unca...nd-effective-well-past-their-expiration-dates

I know some of the few, mentally challenged will reply, "What does phamaceutical potency vs. time have to due with photo emulsions sensitivity vs time?"

Oh Please!

 

[georg16nik]

Interesting. Thanks for that reference.

... and it only costs CHF58! Since I don't have a copy yet, does it specify storage durations?

BrianShaw, I will try summarize..

Film or paper should be stored in environment with 40 % to 60 % relative humidity (RH).

RH below 30 % might result temporarily brittleness and lead to unacceptable curl and possible emulsion cracking.
RH above 65 % can damage containers (e.g. rust), cause labels, tapes and cartons to deteriorate and encourage the growth of fungi.

Manufacturers recommend a maximum temperature of 13 ◦C for longer periods.
Manufacturers' expiration dates can be extended by storing at still lower temperatures.
25 ◦C is OK If storing for less than a month.
Infrared-sensitive films shall be stored at −18 ◦C at all times.

There is a table with temp specs for various materials and a few notes under it, the relevant one is:
For VERY LONG STORAGE of all types of photographic materials, the recommended storage temperature shall be between −18 ◦C and −20 ◦C.

Further within the ISO 18928 doc, there is storage room specs on gases, extraneous radiations, background radiation, mechanical requirements, medical x-ray film stuff, airport stuff about carry-on baggage, the well known ISO 400 barrier.
A table with temperature acclimatization for various films and paper.

Bibliography refers to SO 18906, ISO 18911, ISO 18918, ISO 18920 and some books and tech reports

And.. some other stuff

i wasn't able to download and read the tech publication.

Its OK, You are not the only one..

the problem with this thread is that some people just want examples and proof
of film that was stored ( for a long long time ), exposed and processed
so they can judge for themselves whether or not the quality is still there..

Well, as I have said in this (and other threads) there are ISO standards for everything and people who do not have experience should at least read them before talk the talk.

I have verified myself how long film and paper keep under various conditions, some of my friends did the same.
Also, I have purchased several ISO docs and scientific data over the years, You cant expect to scan info and put it all here or pull up my archives and start posting samples. Photography is a hobby to me and the last thing I would do is arguing with forum tigers, just because they don't have the experience or knowledge that I have.

The above rough excerpt from the ISO doc is the most I can do right now.
I run my own business operation and life is busy enough.

 

[removed account4]

thanks for the info ...
these humidity controlled freezer &c ... are these freezers and controls available for everyday people to purchase and are they large enough to
hold a pallet of photographic film ?

it would be not much use if freezer cost more than the pallet of film ! LOL

lucky for me i have a meat locker, but i can't really control the humidity ...

 

[georg16nik]

While replying to jnanian's PM, it struck my memory (old age) that last year I shared 2 shots from 2010, shot on a 35mm Kodak Technical Pan 2415 roll expired in 1985 (black canister, yellow lettering) from a batch partially stored in the fridge, so in 2010 did some test shots to see how it age. (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[georg16nik]

thanks for the info ...
these humidity controlled freezer &c ... are these freezers and controls available for everyday people to purchase and are they large enough to
hold a pallet of photographic film ?

it would not much use if freezer cost more than the pallet of film ! LOL

lucky for me i have a meat locker, but i can't really control the humidity ...

My freezer is old German one made by AEG in 1982, have dehumidifier in the room and use moisture-proof envelops and boxes.
You can use dehumidified room or cabinet 25% - 30% RH @ 21°C (70°F) for at least 24 hours, then move the films/paper in the freezer.

Here's one more from that 1985 TechPan roll (sat mostly in the fridge), from my gallery here on APUG http://www.apug.org/gallery1/showimage.php?i=56517&catid=member&imageuser=43025

 

[BrianShaw]

BrianShaw, I will try summarize..

Many thanks!

Brian