Thinking about purchasing a LF camera...

Hey folks,

I've finally sold off some of my 35mm equipment and freed up some cash for a LF camera. At first I was thinking about adding a MF system to my 2 Rolleiflexes, but now I'm leaning towards a LF camera. However, with my current setup (2 Rolleiflex 3.5Es), I do not have much room for flexibility in terms of focal lengths. So far this hasn't been a problem, but I'm sure there will be times where I will want a wider or longer lens (this may be solved with a digital camera, but I'm still on the fence on this as well).

That being said, I have a few questions and would really appreciate your advice.

First of all, I've seen a lot of different cameras made from different types of wood or some that are constructed from metal. What's the difference between the types of wood chosen?

How heavy do these LF cameras get? I'm specifically looking at the 4x5 cameras. My tripod leg (Bogen 3021PRO) can support up to 13.3 pounds while my head (Bogen 468MG) can support up to 30. Will I need to invest in a new set of legs (don't want to do this, but if I must, I must!).

Any recommendations on which camera to get? I'm also wanting to use a 6x12 or 6x17 roll film back, so if there are certain bodies with available adapters, I would be interest in those particular cameras.

I am really fascinated with LF cameras, but I cannot see myself using one all the time. My main focus is to shoot landscapes but I've been considering shooting portraits as well (maybe using one strobe and an umbrella).

Your help is appreciated! Thanks.

Jason

Once you start shooting LF you'll probably become converted and shoot almost exclusively LF. Look at Shen Hao's they seem to be the most popular at the moment, and your tripod should be fine.

I shoot a lot of 6x17, I could have bought a conversion back but actually prefer using a separate 617 camera.

Ian

jasonjoo said:

How heavy do these LF cameras get? I'm specifically looking at the 4x5 cameras. My tripod leg (Bogen 3021PRO) can support up to 13.3 pounds while my head (Bogen 468MG) can support up to 30. Will I need to invest in a new set of legs (don't want to do this, but if I must, I must!).

Any recommendations on which camera to get? I'm also wanting to use a 6x12 or 6x17 roll film back, so if there are certain bodies with available adapters, I would be interest in those particular cameras.

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The Shen Hao 4x5 seems to be a very capable camera at reasonable cost and has Ian rightly says, it's very popular at the moment.

To help give you an idea as to weight of a 4x5 rig, my Ebony SW45 with 110 XL Super Symmar lens weighs in at just over 5 lbs (approx. 2.3kg).

If you want to use the standard roll film backs just make sure the camera has the standard Graflock locks (2 slider bars, top and bottom on the camera back to lock in/hold roll film backs).

You also have to consider the weight of the lens/shutter combination, a roll film back and a film holder as well as the camera when considering the tripod and the tripod head's weight capacities.

Another issue that you should look at when considering purchasing an LF camera is the length of the bellows. This is the determining factor for what focal length lenses you can use. Some cameras are limited in how far they can be extended. You also should consider how wide of an angle you want to shoot and whether the camera you are interested in can focus to that focal length.

It just so happens, I maybe selling my Canham DLC 4x5 in the next week or two. PM meif you are interested?

For landscapes you expect to have to hike to find, lighter is better. The Shen-Hao is an excellent camera, very inexpensive for what it offers, folds up nicely, and isn't very heavy. (for specs, go to www.badgergraphic.com ). I'm looking at a Feisol tripod to lighten up my kit (I now use a Bogen 3021) which seems to be up to the task with the Shen. You'll want several lenses (though it's a good idea to spend a lot of time with just one for a while), film holders, a meter, filters, and a dark cloth at least 5' x 4'. All that adds up to a far more substantial pack than your Rollies. I've learned along the way that LF is a very different experience than MF, and I don't need particularly long lenses, or very short ones either (east coast, not the wide open west!). Take your time and learn what you're getting into. Good luck!

I'll put in another vote for a Shen-Hao as a starter camera. They're not the lightest thing, but they're quite reasonable - 6lbs. Put a lens on it and you're looking at 7 +/-. They come in new at around $600. They will handle anything you're likely to put on it, lenswise.

A wooden 4x5 field camera like a Tachihara probably wieghs less than a medium format Hasselblad or Mamiya.

What kind of budget are you looking at? Wide? Long lens type person?

If the budget can handle it. I'd suggest the Shen Hao FCL-57. Add the 6x17 rollfilm back and the 4x5 back. I guess add the 6x12 back to if you want that. It's a fairly light camera. Not much different then the 4x5 body. Will go wide and long. The 6x17 back for it is cheaper then the models that fit the 4x5 cameras.

OTOH if the budget is lower. Get an older 5x7 [Ansco] and a cut darkslide to shoot 6x17 on half a sheet of 5x7.

jasonjoo said:

How heavy do these LF cameras get? I'm specifically looking at the 4x5 cameras. My tripod leg (Bogen 3021PRO) can support up to 13.3 pounds while my head (Bogen 468MG) can support up to 30. Will I need to invest in a new set of legs (don't want to do this, but if I must, I must!).

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If you get pretty much any field camera you'll have no problem on that tripod. I use my Shen Hao on the same legs and an inexpensive 3-way head. I've actually pushed it and used an 8x10 with a monster lens on the legs, and while usable the legs splayed out a bit and I wasn't very happy... but 4x5 - no problem.

Any recommendations on which camera to get? I'm also wanting to use a 6x12 or 6x17 roll film back, so if there are certain bodies with available adapters, I would be interest in those particular cameras.

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The Shen hao 4x5 is a great field camera, inexpensive, has almost all the movements of a monorail, can take an exchangable bag bellows for wide angle lens use, and also can be used with roll film backs. There's even a shen hao brand 6x17 back that is pretty inexpensive (as these things go).

If you want a shen hao, you can get one from BadgerGraphic.com (one of the most trusted retailers in large format sales). Midwest photo exchange (mpex.com) is also a good store to check out.

The shen hao doesn't come up used very often, so buying new is probably your only option. Film holders, lenses, and accessories are better bought used on ebay. I'd look specifically at the caltar line of lenses - these are schneiders and rodenstocks, rebadged by Calumet photo and usually a few hundred cheaper than their name-brand counterparts. I've talked to people who've tested the caltar vs. name-brand versions side-by-side and they are indistinguishable in sharpness, contrast, etc.

The Caltar-II N 90mm f/6.8 and 90mm f/4.5 are the same as the Rodenstock Grandagon N lenses of the same specs. Caltar-II N 150mm f/5.6, 210mm f/5.6, 240mm f/5.6, and 300mm f/5.6 are the same as the Rodenstock Sironar-N lenses. Generally if they have a black barrel, they are Rodenstock lenses, and if they have a silver barrel they are Schneider (or if really old, possibly Ilex).

90mm is a wide angle lens, about like 24mm on a 35mm SLR.
150mm is normal, about 45mm in small format terms.
210mm is longish normal, maybe 60-65mm in small format
300mm is a short long lens, like a 90mm or 100mm in 35mm terms.

You may be tempted to look into monorail cameras because of their less limited camera movements, but remember that you need a much more expensive lens with a much larger image circle to be able to use those movements. My lenses all run out of coverage before I find myself limited by the shen hao's movements. Also monorails are usually heavier, bulkier, and harder to transport and setup.

The main advantage of a monorail would be your ability to use longer extensions, for macro or longer lens use. The shen hao is limited to using a 300mm maximum focal length because of its 320mm maximum extension.

Other cameras to look into:
Speed graphic (a press camera with built in rear shutter curtain, lets you use unusual non-shuttered lenses)
Crown graphic (as above, without shutter curtain) - cheap but limited movements.
linhof technika (a press-style field camera with lots of movements, long extension, and heavy price tag)
tachihara (as shen hao, less movements, lighter)

burke & james (inexpensive, both monorails and field cameras)
calumet 45n, 45nx (good inexpensive monorails)

One of my students brought in her brand new Shen Hao 4x5 with aluminum fittings and rubber on most knobs. The entire camera is much better constructed than the ones some students bought just a couple of years ago. It cost her $50 more than the original model, but is well worth the price.

It is really a beautiful and useful instrument, far better for the money than the Tachihara. It has more movement, longer bellows, interchangeable bellows, all still at a reasonable weight, and great price.

Wow thanks for all the help so far! It seems like the Shen Hao seems to be the popular choice. I just checked prices on sheet film and boy is it expensive! Especially color film! I think I may shoot mainly roll film with a 6x12 or 6x17 back (though with 6x17, the price would come out relatively the same as shooting a single sheet of 4x5).

I have a Shen Hao 4x5 also, picked it up because I wanted a small field camera when I'm not taking my 5x7 or 8x10. After the last time out I realized that what I wanted was a larger roll film camera, hence the Rb67. I like a certain type of roll film and a roll film back for the Shen Hao wasn't out of the question but too much on off and my Mamiya 645 is now too small a negative so the 6x7 currently looks good. I'm beginning to think that I need all of these options so when a specific trip comes up I can choose.

Back in the days of new expensive equipment the average person could only afford one outfit but now with prices being what they are it's different. It goes against the keep it simple attitude of the Westons, Strand and others but AA had a host of equipment and it served him well.

jasonjoo said:

Wow thanks for all the help so far! It seems like the Shen Hao seems to be the popular choice. I just checked prices on sheet film and boy is it expensive! Especially color film! I think I may shoot mainly roll film with a 6x12 or 6x17 back (though with 6x17, the price would come out relatively the same as shooting a single sheet of 4x5).

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I shoot very low volumes of colour work. So far I've got four or five stunning transparencies on colour (out of about 4 or 5 boxes) - as good as the best of anything I've shot on any format really. I hope to get the ratio higher with some time; some were pretty good except for things like running out of image circle and getting vignette.

I probably shoot less than 5 sheets of colour in an average month. If I can restrain myself from shooting the crappy scenes I often end up shooting (usually because I forget how much a sheet of E6 film costs to buy and process), and replace them with good scene and good light, I'll be happy

If you really want to shoot 6x17 you won't be able to do it with a 4x5 camera. A 6x12 back will fit on a 4x5 camera but not a 6x17 back. 6x17 requires a 5x7 camera, and 6x17 also won't enlarge on a 4x5 enlarger if you are thinking of using an enlarger. 17mm = almost 6 and 3/4 inches. You have lots of choices out there either way, 4x5 or 5x7, budget will probably be a big factor. The lenses you want to use and bellows length required are also big factors. Weight is a big factor, particularly if you are going to walk really long distances or backpack.
Good luck,
Doug Webb

Doug-

There are some 6x7 roll-film backs made to fit on 4x5 cameras, with the caveat of certain lenses won't work on them (camera body/roll-back adapter mount will vignette image, can't focus anywhere near infinity with wide/super-wide lenses). I believe Shen-Hao makes one themselves, as do Gaoersi and a few others.

Jason-

as to the cost of sheet film, at least in B/W, there are reasonable alternatives. The Foma products (sold by Freestyle under the Arista.EDU Ultra label) are excellent products which will work just as well as Kodak and Ilford films, for radically less money. Yes, they perform a little differently (less red sensitive, more significant reciprocity factor for long exposures), but they process easily and print nicely as well. I would recommend them highly as a product line to get your feet wet with, and if you like them, stick with them, otherwise experiment with others once you have a feel for what they do vs what you are looking for.

Jim Noel said:

One of my students brought in her brand new Shen Hao 4x5 with aluminum fittings and rubber on most knobs. The entire camera is much better constructed than the ones some students bought just a couple of years ago. It cost her $50 more than the original model, but is well worth the price.

It is really a beautiful and useful instrument, far better for the money than the Tachihara. It has more movement, longer bellows, interchangeable bellows, all still at a reasonable weight, and great price.

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See if you can find a LF course in your area. Books are great, but a real teacher makes learning much faster and catches bad habits that will haunt you later. I took the basic 35mm courses as part of my retirement fun, took the intro to LF and was hooked. The Prof. had weekly assignments that required expanding our capability rapidly. I enjoyed it so much that half way through I bought my 4x5 on eBay. It is a slippery slope from there to 8x10 and 7x17.

Enjoy,

John Powers

Thanks for the heads up Doug. This complicates things a bit since I'd LIKE to shoot 6x17, but it's not absolutely necessary. I think sticking with 4x5 over 5x7 would be a good idea for me, seeing as how much sheet film costs! Perhaps the 6x12 kit will have to do!

I've been looking through Badger Graphic's website and am considering purchasing this kit:

http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2619

Is this a good deal? Or will I be better off buying each component separately?

Thanks,

Jason

That makes for a nice kit to get everything in one fell swoop. I think it's a little pricey, but you're getting everything new, with warranties, and you don't have to spend a month or two hunting down exactly what you want.

Thanks FlyingCamera. I took a look at the Arista.EDU films and they are VERY affordable! I may try my hand at those first and once acquainted with the LF, I'll try some other types of films.

As for the price, how much is a little pricey? I'm always looking forward to save some money!

To be quite honest, some of the money that I'm getting from selling off my 35mm gear will go towards a digital camera. Shooting 35mm, developing, and scanning is just not worth the effort for me. But at the same time, I don't think I'll be lugging around a LF camera during vacations

Thanks,

Jason

jasonjoo said:

Thanks for the heads up Doug. This complicates things a bit since I'd LIKE to shoot 6x17, but it's not absolutely necessary. I think sticking with 4x5 over 5x7 would be a good idea for me, seeing as how much sheet film costs!

Is this a good deal? Or will I be better off buying each component separately?

Thanks,

Jason

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How do you plan on printing these 4x5 negs? 5x7 gives you a usable contact print. Of course for the price of a couple of boxes of 5x7 film you can get a decent 4x5 Beseler or Omega enlarger.

Is it a good deal? Yes if you like new shiny things. As Scott points out, you have the warranties, you have a camera that you know the history of, one you can grow into.

But those prices make me smile when I think of my new to me Deardorff 8x10, in outstanding shape, two lens, two backs, and original case for 150 bucks more.

tim in san jose

Hey Tim,

I'm sorry but I really am new to all of this, so the words Deardorff do not ring a bell, though I do see that 8x10 is twice as large as 4x5 (Joking of course! Though, I really do know nothing about this LF stuff!).

As of now, I do not have an enlarger, so if I do any printing, I will be doing contacts prints. Printing is very new to me as well and I just bought my first box of paper. To my understanding, if I am making 4x5 contact prints, I may not even need an enlarger for the time being? This would be very convenient!

If I can buy the Shen Hao body by itself and add on the other components and save a hundred bucks or so, I would definitely be in favor of that.

And about the 6x17 film back, another user said that it would not work, but Badger Graphic has a 6x17 roll film adaptor for the 4x5 Shen Hao camera. Will I need a special lens that will have a larger imaging circle (am I right in saying this?)?

Lastly, the Shen Hao 4x5 has a model with aluminum parts and stainless steel parts. I'm sure the aluminum model will be lighter, but when I think stainless steel, I think durable. How do the two models compare to each other in terms of build quality and durability? I'm hoping this camera will last me a couple of decades

Thanks for all of the help everyone! I appreciate it greatly.

Jason

Ah, I am not the shen hao expert. I have seen one once.

But whatever lens covers 4x5 will cover 6x17. How can this be? 4x5 ==== inches, 6x17 ==== cm. The perspective changes.

I was just bragging a wee bit. I have been through the 4x5 and 5x7 phases, never really leaving them behind. I still have both lens and film for both formats, as well as 3.25x4.25 (inches) and 2.25 x 3.25 (inches) in sheet film format. Things come and go. I use my 2x3 stuff primarily on my rb67 MF camera, I use the 3x4 on older Kalart Press and Graplex cameras. 4x5 film is usually run through the Speed Graphic, and 5x7 is transitioning from B&J field and studio cameras to the Deardorff. And now 8x10 (WEG).

I do suggest you look around for used 4x5 or 5x7 field cameras. Cheap boxes that keep light out often do what you want and allow you to invest more in the important parts of a camera (a great set of glass with an accurate shutter.)

tim in san jose

What kind of budget are you looking at? Wide? Long lens type person?

If the budget can handle it. I'd suggest the Shen Hao FCL-57. Add the 6x17 rollfilm back and the 4x5 back. I guess add the 6x12 back to if you want that. It's a fairly light camera. Not much different then the 4x5 body. Will go wide and long. The 6x17 back for it is cheaper then the models that fit the 4x5 cameras.

OTOH if the budget is lower. Get an older 5x7 [Ansco] and a cut darkslide to shoot 6x17 on half a sheet of 5x7.

jasonjoo said:

Thanks FlyingCamera. I took a look at the Arista.EDU films and they are VERY affordable! I may try my hand at those first and once acquainted with the LF, I'll try some other types of films.

As for the price, how much is a little pricey? I'm always looking forward to save some money!

To be quite honest, some of the money that I'm getting from selling off my 35mm gear will go towards a digital camera. Shooting 35mm, developing, and scanning is just not worth the effort for me. But at the same time, I don't think I'll be lugging around a LF camera during vacations

Thanks,

Jason

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You could save yourself maybe $200, and/or have more gear, if you bought some bits used, like the lens and the film holders. It comes with two holders; regardless, you'll want to pick up more, quickly. Having shot large format for a while now, 4x5 is almost snapshot sized, and I can burn through it pretty quickly.

As to the steel vs. aluminum question, I have an older Shen made with teak and steel hardware. I've been perfectly happy with mine, and I don't think I would have noticed the weight savings that much. I have taken it on vacation with me, even gone hiking at 9000' of elevation in the California Sierra. If the quality of construction is anywhere close to the quality of mine, the aluminum one would be perfectly acceptable - my Canham 5x7, which is now my mainstay camera, is all aluminum hardware and it works just fine.