They finally let him go.

[Ole]

Be fair Andy; it's not only Americans.

It's spreading, like hamburgers and bad Hollywood movies...

 

[IOS]

This wont be sent to the soapbox, this anti U.S.A bias is big on APUG ! If this post was about any other country it would have been sent straight to the soapbox. Jbruner i want to thank you for the post, it brought out the bias loons on Apug.

 

[arigram]

Thank God!
One less fundamentalist fanatic in APUG.
Btw, I thought you "banned" dramatic exit speeches.

 

[Andy K]

Be fair Andy; it's not only Americans.

It's spreading, like hamburgers and bad Hollywood movies...

True.

Hey I like burgers, not the fast food kind* but the home barbecued kind. I think Killer Tomatoes From Outer Space was an all time classic.


*(unless its from Wimpy because they have trained chefs who cook it in front of you, unlike others who leave the cooking to out of sight acne ridden 16 year olds who are amazed at how clean the buns make their fingernails and leave the 'burgers' to be kept luke warm on a shelf)

 

[Anscojohn]

Be fair Andy; it's not only Americans.

It's spreading, like hamburgers ...

Ole, hamburgers came from Germany!!

Actually, the fact of the matter is that any government, or military, feeling itself threatened, is going to let truth be the first casualty. Mercifully, the good ol' American dictum of "shoot first, ask questions later" has been, in this case, set aside.

 

[arigram]

True.

Hey I like burgers, not the fast food kind* but the home barbecued kind. I think Killer Tomatoes From Outer Space was an all time classic.

Ah, that brings very fond memories of the burgher joint opposite the Harvard Yard in Cambridge, MA. Oops, I should keep my anti-american facade, it will cost me some fans.
Sorry Sean for costing you some memberships.
What the hell, its spring cleaning time...

 

[Anscojohn]

True.

I think Killer Tomatoes From Outer Space was an all time classic.


That was, I think, called "The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" when released in the USA. If that is the film about which you speak, it was actually Made in Japan. Truly, the real "killer" tomatoes are the ones grown in New Jersey.
As far as Wimpies are concerned, well.......the only good Wimpies were designed by Barnes-Wallis and had Bristol Hercules engines. But, I digress. I have great admiration for any photographer willing to go in harm's way to bring information to those who need it. And because the U.S. military authorities incarcerated him, rather than shooting him, disemboweling him, or beheading him is not laying much of a claim to the values which are incapsulated in our written Constitution and our Bill of Rights--values which the current U.S. administration hoped to export to other places.

 

[Elox]

And because the U.S. military authorities incarcerated him, rather than shooting him, disemboweling him, or beheading him is not laying much of a claim to the values which are incapsulated in our written Constitution and our Bill of Rights--values which the current U.S. administration hoped to export to other places.

OK, if I understand correctly:

1. He was detained for possession of bomb-making materials.
2. He was held by the US military, which felt there was sufficient evidence to charge him, until an Iraqi court could handle the case.
3. The Iraqi court decided he fell under a general amnesty that was enacted so there would be no trial and he was ordered released.
4. He was released soon after the ruling.

I wonder if there had been a trial, rather than an amnesty, what the findings would have been...... Just because someone is a photographer and a journalist, it doesn't mean you can't be guilty of a crime and I would think having the trial could have proved his guilt or innocence.

 

[Anscojohn]

it doesn't mean you can't be guilty of a crime and I would think having the trial could have proved his guilt or innocence.[/QUOTE]

*****Well, according to what I remember from early APUG posts it's understood that, nowadays, people can be stopped and questioned by the police in bastions of civil liberties like New Mexico--if a public building be the subject; and apparently, it can be a misdeamenor in some town in Maine to take pictures of children in public--even if they be your own children; and I am sure that, in some troubled parts of the planet, having possession of a cell phone (aka, a triggering device for a roadside bomb); or an electrically charged capacitor (which can power a detonator--although cleverly disguised as a Metz strobe light) would make it very easy for the authorities--civil or military--to haul someone in without much in the way of probable cause. It's a common problem, nowadays.
Som in this Republic know that former U.S. AG Edwin Meese was right--the police wouldn't have arrestd the guy unless he was guilty--but there are some of us who still think that guilt or innocence is not determined by the arresting authorities.
Sadly, I cannot expect our government to have an excess of regard for civil liberties; nor expect it to try to export an exagerated regard for civil liberties when they are being eroded in my back yard, so to speak.
I'm glad the arresting troops didn't see fit to just shoot the poor bast**d -- it's hard enough going in to harm's way to get the picture.
And next time I am down town with my 5x7 photographing the White House from Lafayette Sq, I shall leave my strobe and cell phone at home lest I be run in for carrying bomb making devices.

 

[gr82bart]

For those that want some more about this case:
http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/newswire/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003675227
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2006/04/13/publiceye/entry1496366.shtml
http://michellemalkin.com/2005/04/05/controversy-over-pulitzer-winning-ap-photos/
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/7/19/sami_al_haj_and_bilal_hussein
http://www.epuk.org/News/764/bilal-hussein-to-be-charged
http://www.ap.org/response/response_091906a.html
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/054904.php
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/11/new_development.php
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/04/aps_bilal_husse.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/21/africa/photog.php?WT.mc_id=rssfrontpage
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/10/what-bilal-hussein-detention-reveals.html

It appears that he wasn't found with bomb making equipment. He was found with photographs that were deemed to be propaganda for the insurgents.

Regards, Art.

 

[JBrunner]

War zone? What war zone? Who are we at war with? That's never brought up. More doublespeak. We occupy Iraq and Afghanistan. Hate to burst any bubbles, but by the measures of actual wars the US has been involved in, this doesn't qualify, which makes our rush to give away the farm even more inane. And yes, people are dying, but they are by in large killing each other. We just help a little here and there, and get killed a little, here and there, by a bunch of different people. We try to kill some of the people who are trying to kill us. Allot of the people who are trying to kill us, are also trying to kill each other.

It's not a war, that just makes it sound like something more noble than what it is. We knocked down a dictatorship that had a hold on a bunch of fundy militant zealots. Now we got a mess. Imagine if every political and religious group in the US maintained their own militias with automatic weapons and RPG's. That's Iraq. And we're gonna fix it?

As I recall, there was never a charge, ever, or even an accusation, simply vague and non-specific murmers, and further information on the reasons for his detention was not forthcoming to even to him, the actual detained person, as it was "classified". The ultimate Orwelian catch 22. A literal "unperson".

It shouldn't be soap box material to discuss an injustice. Anti American bent? Americans should be rightly be ashamed. I know I am. Blind faith in fascism, stupidity, injustice, and arrogance is not patriotism.

We preach to the world our ideals of truth and justice and freedom, but they ring hollow on the drum of our actions. Once upon a time they did not. We disrespect our honored dead when we abandon the ideals we fight for, while we say we fight for them. If things ever get right again this era will be looked at with the same disdain as McCarthyism.

What are we "saving" when we destroy our ideals? What are we saving when we trade our rights and freedoms away? The answer is that if we are willing to do these things, if we are, as a lot, that stupid, (and it seems that this time we may be, very few people under thirty in the US seem to know anything about history, or what freedom actually is) then we deserve what we will get, because we will have lost everything and saved nothing.

You can't hold a person without charge for two years and call yourself a free and just people.

 

[middy]

Actually, from the original story linked by JBrunner, "U.S. military investigators had asserted that Hussein had links to insurgents and was found in possession of bomb-making materials when he was detained April 12, 2006."

I'm not saying he was guilty, but it appears the charges were dismissed by an amnesty declaration rather than any refutation of the evidence. It seems to be rather knee-jerk anti-US-military to assume and assert that the charges were unjust to begin with, especially since the insurgents' SOP is to hide among civilians.

It seems hypocritical to complain that Bilal Hussein was "presumed guilty", while presuming the military investigators are perjurious puppets. None of us were there, and none of us have access to the actual evidence, AFAIK. I know several military officers and they all hold themselves to a high standard of conduct.

Anyhow, these discussions can get highly emotional, and I regret any bad feelings caused by my last post which was rather too sarcastic. I try to stay neutral in discussions about the war because I see both sides becoming far too partisan and biased in their interpretations of events. There are certainly valid points to consider on both sides of the pro and anti war fence, IMHO. The world is not black and white. If you only want to hear one side then just ignore me. I just feel the occasional need to point out that our military men and women are generally decent people and shouldn't be automatically dismissed as liars and fools.

 

[JBrunner]

Actually, from the original story linked by JBrunner, "U.S. military investigators had asserted that Hussein had links to insurgents and was found in possession of bomb-making materials when he was detained April 12, 2006."

I'm not saying he was guilty, but it appears the charges were dismissed by an amnesty declaration rather than any refutation of the evidence. It seems to be rather knee-jerk anti-US-military to assume and assert that the charges were unjust to begin with, especially since the insurgents' SOP is to hide among civilians.

It seems hypocritical to complain that Bilal Hussein was "presumed guilty", while presuming the military investigators are perjurious puppets. None of us were there, and none of us have access to the actual evidence, AFAIK. I know several military officers and they all hold themselves to a high standard of conduct.

Anyhow, these discussions can get highly emotional, and I regret any bad feelings caused by my last post which was rather too sarcastic. I try to stay neutral in discussions about the war because I see both sides becoming far too partisan and biased in their interpretations of events. There are certainly valid points to consider on both sides of the pro and anti war fence, IMHO. The world is not black and white. If you only want to hear one side then just ignore me. I just feel the occasional need to point out that our military men and women are generally decent people and shouldn't be automatically dismissed as liars and fools.

No charges were dismissed as no charges were ever made.

If you hold a person, you charge them. There were never charges brought. Would you like to be arrested, and then moulder without charge for two years? Nobody perjured themselves because there were no charges, no trial, nothing. Just two years of jail. Based on assertions.

The right to process is fundamental to justice. This is 1+1=2 type stuff. There is a huge breakdown here. It's simply amazing some can't see that.

 

[middy]

While calling Iraq a war zone may not be correct, I don't think it's unlikely that many Iraqis were being held without charges simply because there was no Iraqi court system in place to render charges to. What there was was likely in shambles and already overloaded. Rather than pass judgment in our own military tribunals which are not really able to handle much volume, perhaps they were simply being held until such time as the fledgling Iraqi government could accept them as defendants.

It's rather romantic to consider oneself a voice for freedom against an Orwellian power or a fascist movement, and I can appreciate the way such reactions safeguard our society, but it sometimes seems rather hyperbolic and hysterical when applied to every questionable circumstance. Those accusing the pro-occupation side of seeing things in black and white and accepting the dogma of pundits are often just as guilty of those same faults.

 

[removed account4]

Ah, that brings very fond memories of the burgher joint opposite the Harvard Yard in Cambridge, MA. Oops, I should keep my anti-american facade, it will cost me some fans.
Sorry Sean for costing you some memberships.
What the hell, its spring cleaning time...

mr. bartley's burgers!

 

[JBrunner]

While calling Iraq a war zone may not be correct, I don't think it's unlikely that many Iraqis were being held without charges simply because there was no Iraqi court system in place to render charges to. What there was was likely in shambles and already overloaded. Rather than pass judgment in our own military tribunals which are not really able to handle much volume, perhaps they were simply being held until such time as the fledgling Iraqi government could accept them as defendants.

It's rather romantic to consider oneself a voice for freedom against an Orwellian power or a fascist movement, and I can appreciate the way such reactions safeguard our society, but it sometimes seems rather hyperbolic and hysterical when applied to every questionable circumstance. Those accusing the pro-occupation side of seeing things in black and white and accepting the dogma of pundits are often just as guilty of those same faults.

Middy, We grabbed him, not the Iraqis, and dude never had a tribunal. Nothin, nada, zip, didley, you see?
If you can't be bothered to charge somebody with a crime, on what basis do you hold them? Bad breath? How is that question hyperbole or hysterical? No answer has yet been forthcoming, by anyone who is actually responsible. That alone speaks volumes.

 

[Ray Heath]

g'day all, Jason

Middy, the military authorities may well be fine, upstanding and highly moral, so what? our western systems of justic are based on fairness and they are run by more than one group so as to ensure justice is done

so they let this guy go because of an amnesty, so what? if they had the proof, they would have given him a "fair trial", they didn't do anything that even remotely seemed fair

if he was such a baddy they would not have released him under any circumstances

and don't forget others were, and are being held much longer than 2 years

Ray

 

[Vaughn]

I don't know, Jason...the guy just might come over here to Humboldt County and steal the souls of my kids by photographing them with his commie, whoops, I mean Islamic film and turn them into Moslem fanatics. Or is that Moslem film and Islamic fanatics? I ferget.

There is no viable excuse for this sort of crap.

Vaughn

 

[middy]

Hmmmm. I've come to see your point now that I've researched this case more fully.

Typically, a POW is held until the end of hostilities without charges or trial. An illegal combatant is customarily executed because of the danger they represent to civilians.

With an asymmetrical war as the backdrop and the customs of war often not applicable to the situation at hand, I can see where the military has a point. If he is indeed guilty, then he is a POW and not truly entitled to legal proceedings. But, since he was not caught red-handed with more than circumstantial evidence, I've come to agree with you Mr. Brunner; he should have been charged criminally or released.

The US military are certainly not the first army or the last to be over-enthusiastic in seizing people as POWs, and I can't even really blame them, they are justifiably paranoid seeing as thousands of people really are trying to kill them; but it is unjust and should be corrected when possible.

It's a sticky situation, and much of the blame can be laid at the feet of an army of insurgents who refuse to wear uniform and distance themselves from the civilian population in order to protect them from collateral damage and miscarriages of justice such as this. On the other hand, it can be argued that we shouldn't even be there to begin with.

 

[Andy K]

That was, I think, called "The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" when released in the USA. If that is the film about which you speak, it was actually Made in Japan. Truly, the real "killer" tomatoes are the ones grown in New Jersey.

Quite right. I just went in the attic and checked though my old video collection. I confused it with Killer Klowns From Outer Space, another great film!