These can't be air bells! Or are they?

Tom-Thomas · Aug 19, 2022

I have seen air bells before, but not like these. On films that I have seen air bells before, there were only a few at the most. But these tiny spots literally are everywhere on the entire frame and on every frame! Attached are a close-up and an even closer up screen shots of the same frame.

Information (I have never had any problem before with this setup and process):

Ilford Orth +
120 Format
Processed in a Jobo CPE-3 at 23° C
Prewash in plain water (5 min)
Sprint Standard B&W Developer (11.5 min)
Kodak Stop Bath (1 min)
Kodak Rapid Fixer (no hardener) (12 min)
First Rinse in plain water (5 min, no exchange of water)
Perma Wash (5 min)
Final Rinse in plain water (4 cycles/exchange of water of 2 min each)

More info: In the same batch is another 120 Ortho and a 135 TMY. No spot on the 135 TMY but they are on both rolls of 120 Ortho.

Huss · Aug 19, 2022

How old was the 120? Was it in the sealed package? I've seen stuff like this on some old 120 film that I had that was out of the sealed foil packages and I had no idea how long they were out. Almost looked like moisture/mold damage.

Rick A · Aug 19, 2022

It doesn't look like air bells to me, contamination of some sort? The center of the spots appear to be cubic in shape not round like air bells.

Tom-Thomas · Aug 19, 2022

Huss said:
How old was the 120? Was it in the sealed package? I've seen stuff like this on some old 120 film that I had that was out of the sealed foil packages and I had no idea how long they were out. Almost looked like moisture/mold damage.

No idea how old it is. The films actually belong to a fellow member of my local photo club and he in turn found these 2 rolls (sealed in original packaging) in the new house he had just bought. So he just shot some pictures of his new house with them. When he handed them to me, the paper wrapper didn't look old, but who knows how old the film actually is. I too suspect that the film may be quite old. I think that because the edge markings are very, very faint (almost unreadable) but the images he shot are of correct density as exposed and developed. Since the edge markings were exposed in the factory during manufacturing, so, doesn't the faint edge marking indicate that the films have been manufactured quite a long time ago — am I making sense?

Tom-Thomas · Aug 19, 2022

Rick A said:
It doesn't look like air bells to me, contamination of some sort? The center of the spots appear to be cubic in shape not round like air bells.

Do you mean contamination in my chemicals? Don't think so. The TMY roll developed in the same batch doesn't have these spots. Or do you mean contamination in somewhere else?

Sirius Glass · Aug 19, 2022

Not air bells. Contaminated film. Film left in the heat too long. Paper backing problem. All good contenders. Show us a backlit photograph of the negative including the rebates please.

Tom-Thomas · Aug 19, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Not air bells. Contaminated film. Film left in the heat too long. Paper backing problem. All good contenders. Show us a backlit photograph of the negative including the rebates please.

Note how thin the edge markings are.

gone · Aug 19, 2022

Looks like an emulsion issue to me too. If you have more of this, I'd shoot another roll and see.

pentaxuser · Aug 19, 2022

Have we any 120 Ilford Ortho Plus users here? If so were the frame numbers faint like this? Presumably poor storage would not affect the frame numbers?

OP, can you show us some of the complete negs in their entirety.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Tom-Thomas · Aug 19, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Presumably poor storage would not affect the frame numbers?

How about old age (the film)?

pentaxuser said:
OP, can you show us some of the complete negs in their entirety.

I don't have the negatives anymore. My friend (to whom these films belong) made these shots today for me to post here. Unfortunately, he just left town for a long weekend. We'll see when he came back.

Anyway, I agree that they aren't air bells. Hecks, there is no way there would be so many air bells on one roll of film.

Tom-Thomas · Aug 19, 2022

I also notice that on the positive image (scan) these spots are black outside with a white dot in the middle. Don't air bells appear (on a positive image) just the opposite — i.e., white-ish or gray-ish outside with a black dot inside in the middle?

pentaxuser · Aug 19, 2022

OK and thanks for the reply Tom The reason why I asked was to see if the scenes in the negs are equally faint

I may have misunderstood your reply but it seems that your friend shot this film but you developed it for him.

If that is right then another set of variables are introduced, namely his camera, his shooting and of course his film as you have already pointed out

Just to be clear I take it that this film is the latest one from IlfordPhoto, namely Ilford Ortho 80 Plus. If it is this stuff then it cannot be that old as Ilford only introduced it a few years ago i.e. certainly not old enough for "normal" old age to affect it but as others have said poor storage certainly could

What further info your friend has on his return will be valuable

pentaxuser

250swb · Aug 19, 2022

The first thing to do is go to the Ilford website and make a customer complaint and send them an image. They are acknowledging on their web site that they have had a problem with backing paper interacting with the film substrate causing this mottling. I did and reported recently some old'ish (2017 I think) 120 HP5 I'd dug out of the fridge for my Holga and got a couple of new rolls in compensation. Of course it didn't compensate my time, or compensate for my wonderful and sadly lost Holga images, they could have won a prize.

pentaxuser · Aug 19, 2022

250swb said:
The first thing to do is go to the Ilford website and make a customer complaint and send them an image.

The film belongs to his friend and he only developed it for him as I understand it but making a complaint with his current knowledge may be premature until he and his friend have a discussion next week

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 19, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Have we any 120 Ilford Ortho Plus users here? If so were the frame numbers faint like this? Presumably poor storage would not affect the frame numbers?

OP, can you show us some of the complete negs in their entirety.

Thanks

pentaxuser

I shot a roll a couple months ago. Fresh stock. No issues. Frame numbers normal density.

Tom-Thomas · Aug 19, 2022

pentaxuser said:
I may have misunderstood your reply but it seems that your friend shot this film but you developed it for him.

Correct. He just bought this house where he found the film. He hasn't got around setting up his darkroom yet, so I developed it for him.

pentaxuser said:
If that is right then another set of variables are introduced, namely his camera, his shooting and of course his film as you have already pointed out

I doubt that it has anything to do with his equipment. This guy takes care of his gears and he is meticulous. And we belong to the same local photo club, so I know this guy knows his craft. He has several MF cameras. I believe he shot these two rolls with his Mamiya C330.

pentaxuser said:
OK and thanks for the reply Tom The reason why I asked was to see if the scenes in the negs are equally faint

The images are well exposed. Development is good too, nice density and contrast.

Tom-Thomas · Aug 19, 2022

250swb said:
They are acknowledging on their web site that they have had a problem with backing paper interacting with the film substrate causing this mottling.

Wow! Do you have a link to that so I can read up on it?

Tom-Thomas · Aug 19, 2022

More info: I only use my chemicals (all of them) one shot and mix them fresh only at the time of processing.

koraks · Aug 20, 2022

This is a backing paper issue. Usually exacerbated by poor storage conditions and/or keeping the film around too long before using it.

foc · Aug 20, 2022

Tom-Thomas said:
He just bought this house where he found the film.

I think that may be a big clue to the problem.

AgX · Aug 20, 2022

The photos in post #1 look as the classic appearance of bacteria having eaten emulsion.

Tom-Thomas · Aug 20, 2022

250swb said:
They are acknowledging on their web site that they have had a problem with backing paper interacting with the film substrate causing this mottling

Tom-Thomas said:
Wow! Do you have a link to that so I can read up on it?

I found it: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/statement-120-roll-film/

Tom-Thomas · Aug 20, 2022

I am now pretty convinced that it is a problem with the film. I find a couple of videos on YouTube that describe spots on Ilford 120 film, much like the ones I am seeing.

Tom-Thomas · Aug 20, 2022

Also, the YouTuber in the first video claims in another video that he didn't see any edge marking on his Ilford Pan F film which exhibited the problem. I wonder if the edge markings are so faint that he just didn't see them. And this is very similar to one of the 2 Ortho I am talking about here. The edge markings on both rolls are very faint, but for one of them, the markings are so extremely faint that I can just very barely make out the markings using a loupe and light table.

Sirius Glass · Aug 20, 2022

Tom-Thomas said:
I am now pretty convinced that it is a problem with the film. I find a couple of videos on YouTube that describe spots on Ilford 120 film, much like the ones I am seeing.

I agree. I never thought that they were from air bells. The film was defective. Now get some fresh film.

These can't be air bells! Or are they?

Tom-Thomas

Huss

Rick A

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Sirius Glass

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