The world of photography has changed, but why should we?

waynecrider · Dec 6, 2007

David above said; "Once again, Sean isn't talking about bringing digital photography into APUG, but making a suggestion that we don't have to feel embattled or isolationist."

You know I've got to be honest in saying that I really did not get the whole concept of this thread. I suppose the impression I got was that we're going to stay the same, Apug, but be more open to other photographic things? Ok..hm..

Well personally I've never felt embattled or isolationist per se', I read digital magazines and have a digital camera and I take part in Apug and talk traditional methods and ask alot of questions. I talk digital cameras and work flow with a friend who shoots digital and I work in Photoshop. I own two scanners and a 4x5 enlarger all used and love to develop film. I promote film and it's usage and I shoot my 4mp digital camera at my folks to share photo's. I talk about alternative processes to many people and give out alt and wet prints. I think I'm the norm. I bet 90% of the people here are like me and that probably 98% of us have a digital camera in our family. So let me ask, without sounding combative, what's the big deal? I was kind of waiting for a punch line that said from now on we're including digital negs back into the standard forum. Actually, David's line above kind of helped, but unless you talk specifics about us as a forum without alluding that we're all anal about analog and need to be less embattled or isolationist, well you know that's not true.

Btw, I remember reading the thread in the Pnet forum when I believe you announced this site. Wasn't that how it happened? Yes I remember you were definitely against digital. But your older now!

Happy Holidays everyone. Blessing for health and happiness in the New Year!

Marc Akemann · Dec 6, 2007

Sean said:
I've been thinking...... When I think about traditional photography becoming isolationist I fear that could be the end of us. Let's continue doing what we love, let's get our work out there and show people what we do and we will flourish. What do you think?

I think you're absolutely right.

keithwms · Dec 6, 2007

I like the positive intent implied by many in this thread. APUG continues to be a place where newcomers (and returnees) can come in and get inspiration and learn.

It'd make no sense for APUG to merge with some more digital entity- the threads would simply be segregated by topic.

I guess one question is whether APUG might take an even more active role in representing the film-using community to the general public and to companies that still supply us. A few ideas...

* One too seldom sees APUG mentioned in personal gallery websites or in the magazines. I wonder if members might take a more active role by giving modest referrals to APUG. For example, if someone gets a spread in a magazine, perhaps they might include a statement like "Further related work may be found in my portfolio at apug.org" etc. Nowadays, readers may not even realize that a particular photograph was derived from the traditional process. It is very important to make that clear, in a positive way.

* When a film is in low supply, when a company's commitment seems to be waivering, or when it looks like production is being dialed down, perhaps a moderator/admin could compose an open letter, leave it open for editing suggestions for a few days, and then apuggers could simply sign on to it . Then the letter would go to the company on APUG letterhead, so to speak, as one cohesive statement, with a bundle of signatures. It seems to me that this technique could also be used to try to coax some meaningful statements from companies that are making film-related products, statements similar to what we recently got from Ilford.

kjsphoto · Dec 6, 2007

eclarke said:
Sounds like the OP is a commercial for other websites and that the business aspect of your enterprise is now driving your approach more than Analog Photography, way more digital customers...EC

Have to agree with you here. I think it is time to find a new forum...

walter23 · Dec 6, 2007

I need to mingle with digital users, not only because I am one part of the time, but because I need to sell them on the glory of large format photography

walter23 · Dec 6, 2007

eclark said:
something about digital customers and business decisions

kjsphoto said:
Have to agree with you here. I think it is time to find a new forum...

Whether or not Sean is trying to expand the scope of his business does not impact the fact that what he's saying is sensible. I wouldn't be anywhere near the darkroom or large format photography had I not started out with digital. I suspect there are thousands of potential LF and medium format converts out there who've never been exposed enough to the possibilities. Making some efforts to represent ourselves among photography / imaging at large (including digital!) is the only way to tempt these people into exploring analogue.

JBrunner · Dec 6, 2007

How friggin thick are some persons? How many times does Sean and others have to say after the OP that APUG isn't changing?

It's an invitation, and a challenge, you nit wits, to come out of the closet and participate in the newer areas.

Marc Akemann · Dec 6, 2007

kjsphoto said:
Have to agree with you here. I think it is time to find a new forum...

Either you don't understand the original post, or, you didn't read it throughly, or, I simply don't understand where you're coming from. What is it that you think is changing here that would cause you to go elsewhere? Maybe I'm missing something here.

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 6, 2007

I've said it before elsewhere, and I'll say it again here - there is room under the sun for both digital and analog imaging. I do think that Newsweek article took a half-hearted swing at the answer and failed to connect - digital imaging is an illustration/graphic design technique, and is alternately an analog to analog photography and nothing to do with it at all. The best way for us to positively support the mission of this site is to act as constructive evangelists - get out there, show your wet-darkroom work, engage people (especially young people), and most of all, make meaningful work! What the world cares about is not HOW an image is made, but WHAT the image says. Show folks that Marshall McLuhan wasn't totally off his rocker, and that the medium is PART of the message. As Edward Weston once said, "There are things you can say in color that you can't say in black-and-white". Well, PROVE to the world that there are things you can say in analog that you can't say in digital. Just as Weston's statement about color did not undercut the validity of black-and-white (he'd have been quite a hypocrite if he claimed it did), the things you can do in digital don't undercut the validity of what you can do in analog, and vice versa.

Sirius Glass · Dec 6, 2007

The fact that Sean is expanding the scope of his business does not impact the fact that what he's saying is sensible. I wouldn't be anywhere near the darkroom had I not started out finding this website when I was searching for a website devoted to film and including 135 and 120 formats.

Steve

noblebeast · Dec 6, 2007

JBrunner said:
How friggin thick are some persons? How many times does Sean and others have to say after the OP that APUG isn't changing?

It's an invitation, and a challenge, you nit wits, to come out of the closet and participate in the newer areas.

Exactly! The way I read it: Let's get in their faces - not by way of debate, not in the spirit of elitism. Let's just get involved, show 'em what's possible with these clunky old cameras and tried and tested methods, and lead by quiet example. It would take a while to collect the exact posts, but there are quite a few photographers who have come to APUG and film photography via digital cameras. It's not just love of photography that leads people to shoot film, but also frustration with digital results - especially among the younger generation that didn't have the advantage of growing up during a time of home darkrooms, camera stores that stocked a wide variety of film, chemicals and papers and not just this week's hot electronic gizmo, and photography magazines that were filled with more than ads and 'articles' gushing over the latest product from one of the sponsors.

A new motto: "At APUG, We're Here To Help."

Joe

papagene · Dec 6, 2007

JBrunner said:
... <snip> ...
It's an invitation, and a challenge, you nit wits, to come out of the closet and participate in the newer areas.

I agree, Sean's message wasn't that hard to understand. Even I knew what he meant, :rolleyes: and I ain't no genius.
And with regard to his message, the reason I am so active in the New England region, trying to get APUG'ers out there in the public using their (analog) cameras and trying to put together exhibits of our work. Also, my involvement with the New England Large Format Photography Collective (NELFPC) runs along the same path.
So get out there and photograph, show your work and be enthusiastic about analog.

gene

jovo · Dec 6, 2007

I no longer get my hackles up when I hear someone challenge traditional processes, because I no longer feel I'm doing such work in isolation. Over 20,000 fellow 'puggers are enough of a bloc, and there is so much excellent work to point to, that such attacks are far easier to slough off. As a consequence, I don't feel uncomfortable learning as much about digital as I need or want to. In fact, despite, and while doing so, it's almost become cool to actually be the only local person using film. Now that the gee-wiz part of the digital revolution has mostly washed over us, there seems to be a glimmer of remorse for the loss of authenticity that non photoshopped photography still represents. I think it is a lot easier now to straddle both worlds, and glean the best from either.

Harrigan · Dec 6, 2007

eclarke said:
Sounds like the OP is a commercial for other websites and that the business aspect of your enterprise is now driving your approach more than Analog Photography, way more digital customers...EC

YES Apug has gotten more commercially oriented and more so daily IMO.

I've not seen posts on here as bad as the commercial Mr Flesher posted on LFF about ink jet paper but I see apug going a bit more commercial all the time. It is paid for by users AND advertisers after all. owell it's the name of the game I guess if you use it to make a living.

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 6, 2007

To those who feel APUG is too commercial, might I suggest taking a visit to Photo.net and see the presence of advertising intrusion there? Also, if you feel this is too commercial, set up a website with 20,000 users and a multi-gigabyte image database, and see how fast you need to start generating revenue to keep yourself out of the poorhouse. LFInfo is at about that threshold- no image database, about 500 users, and no advertising. And WAY less information, restricted to a very narrow focus which APUG has already been bashed for having some of the same, in this very thread.

keithwms · Dec 6, 2007

Oh God, look at rangefinderforum if you want to see advertising at its most intrusive. APUG is not commercial at all, by comparison.

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 6, 2007

Subscribers have the option of turning off some of the advertising.

The only advertising I see is the banner on the top of the screen and the logos for the four APUG Partners on the right of the front page (which I rarely look at) and in the footer. There are also four rotating block ads under the reply box, which subscribers may turn off.

Jedidiah Smith · Dec 6, 2007

You know the funny thing is, I don't mind advertising at all. I kind of like it, actually. It's like confirmation that these companies realize we [APUG, et al] are a force in the market and they're willing to pay to get our attention.
We in turn actually will click on a link every once in a while when something piques our interest.
Good for all in the long run.
Jed

jd callow · Dec 6, 2007

I don't see the commercialism like the three posting to this thread do -- One being an advertiser is a bit ironic. Advertisements are a fact of life on any site. APUG allows for paying users to skip them and non subscribing users are only shown static (non moving) adverts within a market space one would think people here care about. Additionally, most advertisers are small independent folks, many of whom are active members. There are posts about commercial products (almost entirely posted by members not advertisers), but spam is deleted as soon as we find it.

I do not see Sean's OP as a promotion for his future ventures and I think that using that as a basis for thinking the site is going more commercial as pretty hard to defend.

What I'm reading is that the OP and owner of the site is sick of the us v them attitude and in response is putting his energies into making more broad his interest in photography. I also see the post as a challenge to the readers to revaluate, positively, their own positions or to address their positions in a (more?) positive light.

JBrunner · Dec 6, 2007

I leave the ads on. They are about products and services I find, or may find useful. There is a newer ad that is offering strobe conversion for flash bulb holders. If I can beat out the Star Wars mutilators somewhere, I could get and have a usable flash on my Crown Graphic. I'm glad I saw the ad.

Sean · Dec 6, 2007

I also don't see where this commercial banter is coming from. All you have to do is look at APUG's track record 5+ yrs should be enough to convince anyone that I've done everything I can to strike a balance between advertising and content. I turn away a heap of advertising from companies that are not traditionally oriented enough and have had other webmasters claim I could double revenue using different 'monetization' techniques. I'm not prepared to ruin the atmosphere on APUG by using monetization systems that other sites use. Instead I offer cheap ads so the small guys can get in here and get big exposure for their traditional products and subscribers can turn off all ads except the banner in the header. The way APUG is run as of now is what I see in the distant future as well. I'm building a few other photography oriented sites, I love photography and I like making web sites so I combine the two.. I can't find the crime in that. These other sites are not directly influencing APUG, not even on the same server..

MurrayMinchin · Dec 6, 2007

No worries from the silent majority Sean

Murray

HerrBremerhaven · Dec 6, 2007

APUG does function (seem) somewhat isolationist ... though perhaps more would consider it an oasis. There will always be those for whom the tools mean more than the images, and the means provide the path to the end ... but maybe not a valid justification.

Present a framed image behind glass, without explanation of tools and materials, and the average non-enthusiast probably has no idea how an image was created. In a similar way, a portfolio book under review at an agency likely contains no production information, just images; so it is up to the reviewer to decide whether those images are compelling, or provide the vision they want to use.

There is nothing wrong with tradition, using traditional materials, nor even vast toil and effort required to achieve that glorious print one envisioned. When those aspects are more highly touted, then I question whether the image was strong enough ... was an explanation required to impress the viewer. We should encourage tradition, but not when it is used to put down those who are less traditional ... don't use it as a weapon ... see it as an asset. This is why I often write that statements of efforts or tools are merely marketing, and there are people who try to sell (up-sell?) themselves on tools, equipment, toil and effort.

Then there is, as the designer of the Nikon F6 put it, respect for the image. This is sometimes mis-quoted, though his idea was that film photographers generally seemed more careful in their approach to photography. While this is not always true (is anything?), I do see what he was suggesting. In a similar thought, have some respect for the images you see, something beyond the tools and toil ... otherwise you might miss some really compelling images.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography

Jedidiah Smith · Dec 6, 2007

I agree with you, Sean. Don't let any naysayer get you down. You have succeeded marvelously with creating a site such as this. If the other photography sites you make are equally sucessful, then more power to them! Enjoy the road...and no, APUG is NOT too commercialized. It is barely there at all. You have done the right thing with the ads in my opinion; they are very relevant to our photography here, and I at least appreciate the fact they are willing to help support such a site.
Keep up the good work.
Jed

Sirius Glass · Dec 6, 2007

Jedidiah Smith said:
You know the funny thing is, I don't mind advertising at all. I kind of like it, actually. It's like confirmation that these companies realize we [APUG, et al] are a force in the market and they're willing to pay to get our attention.
We in turn actually will click on a link every once in a while when something piques our interest.
Good for all in the long run.
Jed

JBrunner said:
I leave the ads on. They are about products and services I find, or may find useful. There is a newer ad that is offering strobe conversion for flash bulb holders. If I can beat out the Star Wars mutilators somewhere, I could get and have a usable flash on my Crown Graphic. I'm glad I saw the ad.

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