The world of photography has changed, but why should we?

[Sean]

Sounds interesting, but I do have a question. How many people have time to check all those sites? Maybe I'm just uncommonly busy for some reason...but I barely have enough time to check APUG, and Photo.net - that's only 2 sites! And now you're going to make three more...

I'm just trying to figure out why you want to split it all up? Why dilute your user base and therefore your revenue base from advertisers, etc looking to capture a lot of market share? Look at Photo.net as an example. They cover everything on one site. I am a paying member there, and here. They have a LOT more user base than we do here. I like APUG better in ways, because it fits my style (manual Minolta gear, darkroom, etc), but there's no denying the userbase of Photo.net, and having everything all in one place.
Just coming at you from the other way, not meaning to be contrary to your idea with all the different domains; just making everyone think about it.
Jed

There are a few reasons for splitting them up, mainly because it is something I can manage as interesting side projects and it's more affordable to do. APUG is established and running on a dedicated server (an expensive one at that). I can't explain how much work I've put into APUG and I am hesitant to attempt to morph it into something else and destroy it in the process -the technical logistics of doing that are immense as well so I prefer to keep APUG as it is. With separate sites I can create something that Apuggers and others may find useful without impacting APUG's systems. They exist at different web hosts further removing any impact to APUG's server. APUG is hosted at rackspace.com and bandwidth is insanely expensive with rackspace so it makes no sense to integrate a video sharing site that could wipe out our bandwidth in a matter of hours or have gobs of custom coding done to run videos pulled from other hosts etc.. I don't expect all of APUG to use a new site that I create, if some folks use it or find it useful that's great. None of the sites I am working on have a means of diluting the APUG userbase. The video sharing site is not a discussion community and greatcapture.com isn't going to be centered around discussions like APUG is. The other sites are also all encompassing not just Traditional. Anyway, the bottom line is I find it far less risky at this stage to have an umbrella company with a suite of niche sites rather than try to have 1 site for all. If money were no object I suppose I would rent a small server farm, throw $300,000 at some coders, hire 5 staff and bring everything into one slick system but I can't see that happening..

 

[Steve Smith]

When artists meet and discuss painting they don't argue with each other over watercolour being better than oil or enquire "have you gone acrylic yet?" They discuss their preferences without arguing any superiority. We should do the same.


Steve.

 

[George Papantoniou]

APUG is possibly the only place on the web where it's possible to have a sensible discussion about film-related processes without ignorant people making foolish comparisons or "helpful" suggestions about digital processes. I see no need for APUG to change.

I'll second that.

Furthermore, as I have said in the past I have a BIG problem with Digital Imaging being called "Photography"... I am sorry Sean and all the rest of you, the two media are not the same. So, I'll be calling "Photography" what has been given that name since the 1840's and "Digital Imaging" the new medium. The fact that the Digital Imaging Capturing Devices manufactured usually resemble (for the time being) Photographic Cameras does not confuse me into believing that they are the same, or the artistic medium they serve is the same. The fact that the final result sometimes is similar does not confuse me either, just like I have never believed that hyperrealist painting was photography.

I accept that Sean or anyone else makes as many web forums about Digital Imaging, Hybrid Media or whatever, but if APUG starts allowing discussions about digital, count me out...

I would avoid using the word "capture" for a non Digital medium, for I have gotten used to hear it when the medium concerned is Digital Imaging.

BTW, I am a pro who is using Digital Imaging a lot for my work.

 

[Ian Leake]

When artists meet and discuss painting they don't argue with each other over watercolour being better than oil or enquire "have you gone acrylic yet?" They discuss their preferences without arguing any superiority. We should do the same.


Steve.

Well said!

 

[Sean]

stuff

Phew, that's some serious negativity but I did ask for your thoughts.. I think you are reading far too much into this. What I posted are my recent thoughts on where we are are and where I think we should go. Ultimately I am 110% devoted to APUG's charter so everyone can ignore me and I doubt they will notice anything different on the pug for years to come. As with my side projects they too can be completely ignored and there would be no effect on APUG. I'm for the most part trying to do interesting things and think it's a good idea to stay away from an introverted path. When it comes to the us vs. them war my tank is on empty, I just have nothing left.. it's a tiring waste of time and I for one am ready to look ahead and focus on the future of traditional photography. Some people think it's already dead and we should just hang out here and ride it out as long as it will last. It doesn't have to be that way. I'm planning to offer a 'day in the darkroom' course to my 15yr old stepsons school for any art student there who would like to see a darkroom session. I am also thinking of getting off my butt and joining the photographic society in Auckland (McCallum watch out!). Anyway it's late so until tomorrow..

 

[Sean]

I accept that Sean or anyone else makes as many web forums about Digital Imaging, Hybrid Media or whatever, but if APUG starts allowing discussions about digital, count me out...

No need for anyone to think for a second that would ever happen. APUG is here to stay.

As for 'digital imaging', 'digital photography'.. This goes back to the us vs. them arguments which are oh so draining..

 

[RH Designs]

When artists meet and discuss painting they don't argue with each other over watercolour being better than oil or enquire "have you gone acrylic yet?"

Funnily enough my sister is an artist and she hates acrylic!

 

[Marco B]

Sean,

Why are you thinking we are such a closed and exclusive community??? This is the "internet", anyone interested in analog photography and capable to type "www.google.com" into the addressbar of a web browser, is likely to stumble upon APUG at some point...

In addition, I continuously promote APUG each time I meet people interested in analog photography, whether artist, photographer, gallery owner, or photographic shop owner. I am still amazed at the amount of people interested in analog that don't know APUG, even if it's their core business...

Recently visited a gallery here in the Netherlands, fully dedicated to analog photography, that hadn't yet heard of APUG! "We are dedicated to analog and we don't know about this site??? ). Feels like a good thing to do.

In terms of promotion and integration into the larger world, I recently saw an article in a general photographic magazine (forgotten which one though...) mentioning APUG as an active community, even including a screenshot of the site. That's a good thing, and I hope to see more of that in other magazines.

I do feel you are doing a terrific job. The main reason I like APUG so much is that it really makes me feel "at home". No-one here is going to make a fool of you if you have any, however basic or beginner, question about "analog" photography. Also, I feel the appreciation of analog and BW photography is much higher here than on any other site.

BW simply can not compete in terms of instant gratification / attraction among a host of digitally vamped color images on all the other sites. BW pictures on other sites hence tend to attract far less attention and appreciation on other sites...

I understand your need for some diversification by means of the others websites your starting. I will follow it with some side interest and see if it makes sense to me personally...

Keep up the good work!

Marco

 

[Sean]

Sean,

Why are you thinking we are such a closed and exclusive community???

It's more to do with my own views of how I run the site and what I do in my local community. I should have been a bit more clear in that regard because there are many advocates of APUG and traditional photography and I would hate to inadvertently offended anyone or have them feel I am attacking them, not the case at all. I've been questioning myself more than anything.. what have I done to keep us involved with the photo world at large and the right path to take. Yes we are indexed heavily and fairly well known but am I getting us 'out there' in the ways which count..

 

[Christopher Walrath]

WE SHOULD BE STALWARTS AGAINST THE DIGITAL ONSLAUGHT! WE SHOULD STAND FIRM IN THE FACE OF ADVERSITY! WE MUST HANG TOGETHER FOR SURELY WE WILL HANG SEPERATELY! WE DON'T NEED TO ADD TO OUR NUMBERS! WE SHOULD PROMOTE INBREEDING! DIGITAL! BAH! I WOULD RATHER TRIP AND CATCH MY . . .oh, really? um, well, o.k. SOUNDS GREAT TO ME! EMBRACE THE WHOLE WORLD! SHOW THEM WHAT WE'RE MADE OF! GIVE THEM THE OLD ONE TWO! LET THEM HAVE IT! YATTA YATTA YATTA!

 

[Ole]

Within two days, I received two packages in the post.

One was a brand new DSLR, which I promptly put a 50 year old lens on.

The other was a 100+ years old casket set - the zoom lens of the day.

Just as I am quite capable of using both of these and getting results out of them that match my intended use, I am capable of discussing one without feeling offended that I'm not discussing the other.

In my opinion APUG is a success. It is perhaps the greatest repository of knowledge on all things photographic and non-digital in the world today, and what we don't know we have members who are eager to find out. But without a rather "militant" stance on digital in the discussions, I believe APUG would not have become what it is today.

Now it's time to get back to the darkroom and try once more to get a decent print out of that "#¤% negative - if I hadn't done it before, I would have said it was impossible and just scanned the d*mn thing!

 

[Marco B]

Yes we are indexed heavily and fairly well known but am I getting us 'out there' in the ways which count..

If you ask this question, you should first define "what counts":

- Helping analog photographers sharing and passing on vital knowledge: You passed with an "A / 10" for this one...
- Allow analog photographers to share and show the world their work and love for this kind of photography: you've succeeded...
- Help promote youngsters to start and continue shooting analog: there ARE young APUG members...
- Keeping the whole remaining analog photographic industry alive: that's way above anyone's head Sean! No single person can hope or take the responsibility for that...
- Convert digital photographers to analog: maybe a few, but why would we want this desperately?

So, what is it that you feel would "count" :confused:

 

[eclarke]

Is film dead?

Analog Photography Users Group now wants to jabber about digital? So sad ..EC

 

[Sean]

Analog Photography Users Group now wants to jabber about digital? So sad ..EC

Are you referring to this thread or the site? If you are referring to the site then it doesn't sound like you've read the entire thread. Nothing on APUG is changing so I'm not sure I follow you.. These types of threads do tend to generate drive by postings. There will probably be a post in the next few hours along the lines of "Oh my god I can't believe APUG is going digital!" :confused:

 

[Marco B]

"Oh my god I can't believe APUG is going digital!" :confused:

***** HOT NEWS FLASH *****:

"Analog Photography User Group" uses the latest "analog" techniques for inter-community worldwide communication. Computers and the internet have from now on been banned and all messages and photosharing is from now on done using postal pigeons and postal coaches drawn by horses. Messages take just 178 days to arrive at their final destination. A new speed record for modern communication...

Serious, I am VERY glad the APUG has gone "digital" from the start...

 

[Ian Leake]

I hope you didn't interpret my post as, "us and them," I find that a pointless and tiresome notion too. Your various sites are a great way to broaden the scope of your online activities to cover new and interesting areas. That's wonderful and I wish you luck. And it's clear from what you've posted that APUG isn't being changed. (So lock the thread now and run for cover ).

 

[Sean]

I hope you didn't interpret my post as, "us and them," I find that a pointless and tiresome notion too. Your various sites are a great way to broaden the scope of your online activities to cover new and interesting areas.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with them. Who knows I might get enough revenue going from them that photocentric ltd. could actually hire someone. Otherwise not sure I'll ever get in the darkroom again!

 

[ricksplace]

Here's an interesting analogy. The library in the College where I teach has been shrinking in number of books. How is this possible when the resources available to students is increasing? It's digital capture. Some of the materials are available on line to students even from home. Texts that sell for $359.00 are now available on line for students registered in the course, and have whiz-bang search engines that speed up the research time for students. There are still thousands of hard paper copies of books in the library that are still used a lot. I like reading real books. So do a lot of others. When I need information, I usually go to google first, as do my students. Every classroom in my College is now a "smart" classroom, with a computer, projector, and internet access. With the wireless service throughout the College, students can do research during class, and the Prof can display it on the screen. Sure has changed teaching, and for the better. I still use overheads for some courses, chalk and blackboards for others, and computers and the internet for others.

I'm probably going to buy a dslr (Pentax) so I can use all of my 50yr old lenses on it. I'll still use film most of the time just 'cause I like it.

Your idea is a good one, Sean. Run with it.

ps. MIT has all of their course materials and content available on line to anyone who wants to look. Free. You will have to register and pay if you want to take the course and receive credit for it. If you just want to learn something for the sake of learning it, it's free.

 

[ShaunH]

Mmmmm... I remember hearing "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" Is this not once more a case of market forces...? If it's not what we want, why are we getting it...?

 

[SuzanneR]

I think you are taking APUG and the other sites in the right direction, Sean. I think we should be part of the wider world of photography, but stay on topic. It's important, I think, as an archive of information to keep threads from straying into digital.

But I don't get my undies in a bunch when someone chooses digital imaging. It's not worth the energy to worry about what medium someone else chooses. Of course, I've had more than a few people tell me I should "go digital" which I find annoying (despite my smiling nod) so I'd prefer not to shove my own methods down someone's else's throat.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Once again, Sean isn't talking about bringing digital photography into APUG, but making a suggestion that we don't have to feel embattled or isolationist.

Here's a good example. Jack Flesher runs a pretty sophisticated digital workshop forum with some high-end digital users, and he started a thread showing off his new Chamonix 4x5", and there are people in the thread who are mostly digital oriented who are really enthusiastic about the new camera and are even thinking of putting some film into it--

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178

This is a good thing. It's not a matter of "converting" anyone, but being a presence out there and showing people that traditional methods are alive and well, that these methods are available and accessible to people in digital imaging and are more tools in the kit, and most importantly that traditional technique doesn't necessarily entail a traditional aesthetic vision.

 

[sar-photo]

I find this all rather tiring. I totally agree that Sean is taking APUG in the right direction (we NZers have to stick together!). I have had nothing but friendly and helpful advice from APUGers whenever I have asked a question or had a problem. I feel part of the APUG world even though I scan and print my images digitally. I fully support film (I use an MF folder, 2 Holgas, a Bronica and a 4x5), I much prefer the look of film Even when scanned!) as well as having the physical negative. I process all my own film (B+W, C41 and E6) and wouldn't have it any other way!
I had a darkroom once many years ago but found that I just wasn't very good at printing. I find that I (and by that I mean ME) can produce much better prints digitally than I ever could in the darkroom.
Digital photography is not going to go away, in fact I know of several young photographers that got started in photography because of the ease of using a digital camera and have now moved "up" to film!
Film users are not luddites, but taking an elitist and defensive stance can lead to the perception that we are.

Cheers,
Simon

 

[bill schwab]

Film users are not luddites, but taking an elitist and defensive stance can lead to the perception that we are.

Exactly...

 

[eclarke]

Are you referring to this thread or the site? If you are referring to the site then it doesn't sound like you've read the entire thread. Nothing on APUG is changing so I'm not sure I follow you.. These types of threads do tend to generate drive by postings. There will probably be a post in the next few hours along the lines of "Oh my god I can't believe APUG is going digital!" :confused:

Sounds like the OP is a commercial for other websites and that the business aspect of your enterprise is now driving your approach more than Analog Photography, way more digital customers...EC

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Dare to dream Sean!

If we stayed within the safe walls of APUG and only scanned our work into the APUG galleries, that would be bad. Despite our views as photographers towards digital, hybrid work flows, or even politics and religion, what really counts is the photographs we make. I can't wait to finish the darkroom so I can climb back into the saddle and let my prints do the talking for me.

Maybe I'll even become (a teeny bit) involved in the local club scene...they might know some awesome areas I haven't discovered yet

Murray