The Voigtlander Bessa R2M, R3M, R4M - getting the job done?

[dugrant153]

I've been recently contemplating on possibly purchasing rangefinder and am quite interested in the CV Bessa cameras as I can still get them new. I've had my fair share of dead or CLA-needing cameras and it's kinda driven me nuts... so hoping to get something new to hopefully avoid this issue.

I've been doing a lot of pondering and reading up on the Bessa RF cameras and just want to know what the real situation is. I've read stories about mis-aligned rangefinders (a problem I've had on my Konica Auto S2 and has kind of put me off...), shutters jamming, etc etc. I want to know if these are just a few cases and whether people out there are actually using these cameras (reliably so) to do great work. Or whether, they're really junk and I should just save my pennies for ... a used Leica?

I've contemplated used Leica's but it seems like those in my price range are usually in the "I need a CLA so budget another $XXX.XX" range also.

Anywas, would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Edit: I have quite a few competent and well-working SLRs now. The reason for going RF? Very quiet operation (good for churches) and being able to focus in low light + access to lenses and optics with high quality wide open (i.e. F1.4 or F2.0).

 

[Dr Croubie]

a) You get what you pay for, so you're not going to get a Leica for half the price.
b) As with anything >30 years old, how it left the factory is less important than how it's been treated since.
c) Mine are good enough for me. Even if a Leica is 'better', one won't improve my shots.

I started with a Bessa L and 21/4 Skopar, I still have it, and still regularly use it with RVP/Ektar for very very lightweight hiking. There's not much to it, just a TTL meter which works as well as any TTL meter with ultrawide lens (ie, you gotta compensate for bright skies).

Then I got an R3A, a 40/1.4 Nokton, a 90/3.5 Apo Lanthar, plus I've got a 50/2.8 Industar and 50/2 Jupiter. For a start, the quality of the 40/1.4 and 90/3.5 are great. I always wanted a 90/2.8 tele-elmarit, but the apo-lanthar is good enough for me (not sure how they compare directly though). The 40/1.4 is great, I love 40mm as a length, and I regularly use it indoors (eg, last weekend, at f/1.4, 1/30s with delta 3200 @ 3200). Beautiful.

Between those two, they're my very light & compact travelling kit. Colour ultrawides on the L, B+W street and indoors on the R3A.

For the body, not much to report, it works. I can focus it just as well if not better than an SLR (my FL 55/1.2 on EOS 3 slightly back-focuses, never had a problem with the R3A). My rangefinder patch may be ever so slightly out of vertical alignment after a few too many knocks and drops. I haven't checked properly, but it's otherwise horizontally calibrated perfectly (where it counts) so I don't want to muck with it.
Only problem I've ever had is that the rubber bit on the right of the back came off. Superglue fixed that.

I also went the R3A for quietness, my EOS 3 may have faster longer lenses (eg 55/1.2, 80/1.8, 100/2.0), but it's damn loud in an otherwise quiet poetry reading or performance (where I take a lot of shots). Apparently a Leica is quieter, but I've never compared, my R3A is quiet enough. I now only use the EOS 3 for music performances where the loud doesn't matter.

 

[Spicy]

The first RF I owned was an R2m -- I ended up selling it for a few reasons, two of which being the build being acceptable (but not inspiring resale-value-confidence), and shutter noise.

I don't know if the R#a cameras have a quieter shutter (I've heard they do), but I think they share the same/a similar one that's in the Zeiss Ikon, which is reasonably quiet. The -m cameras are basically an SLR shutter w/out the mirror box, and sound almost exactly the same, with that metallic *thwa-CHIIICCCKKK*.

I never had any reliability issues with mine, and the finder was fantastic, as was the meter and the ergonomics. It's a great shooter, but lacks the overall refinement of the Leicas. I would definitely try and check one out in person before buying, as you say you are interested in getting an RF camera for quieter shutter operations. The R-Ms are fairly loud, only marginally quieter than an SLR.

 

[Xmas]

All the Cosina kit is very reliable whatever web gossips may say, low maintenance requirements.

My Leica IIIc has not seen maintenance from before '75 when I bought it, so that is also web gossip.

Don't buy off web you are sure to get junk.

You need to be careful when changing film to avoid damage to shutter from finger or film shards. Normally replacing module.

But Leicas will get indigestion with film shards too.

Shorter base length rangefinder might be a problem unless you stay with wide angles.

An M is normally audible in quiet environments close in with a wide. But the metal shutters noise spectra seems to penetrate even more both Copal and F2 or SP are very audible. Even with mirror of F2 locked up.

Only BTL shutters are quiet enough for sound stage/poetry.

 

[rbultman]

I have a Minolta CLE and an R3M. I just got the R3M (used) and am part way through my first roll. The R3M handles nicely. I am still getting used to the LED meter display in the viewfinder. I am used to match needle, which I still prefer at this point on non-auto cameras. The CLE does not have match needle and I almost always use it in auto. I suspect I will get used to the metering display of the R3M over time. To me, the R3M has a very good build quality and feels more lilke an SLR when I hold it.

The shutter on the R3M is definitely noisier than the CLE. I'm guessing it is due to the cloth shutter on the CLE and the metal shutter on the R3M. The CLE shutter has a tinny 'click' while the R3M does make the sound that Spicy mentioned. I can also feel more vibration on the R3M when it is held to my eye while releasing the shutter. The R3M is quieter than a Canon A-1 and much quieter than a Canon FTBn.

The 1:1 viewfinder is pretty awesome. I expect I will most likely use the 40mm Nokton so WYSIWYG with it, minus parallax of course. The R3M is easier to focus the 40mm with and the 90mm Minolta that I have is much easier. I bought the R3M largely because of the larger EBL. Focusing the 90mm with the CLE is like trying to focus through a soda straw, at least for me.

The R3M looked larger than the CLE to me but it isn't. Its a little thinner front-to-back, a little shorter, but a little wider than the CLE. By a little I mean a little. I'd say it is a little heavier than the CLE, but I haven't weighted them for comparison. It's still a very small and light camera as compared to an SLR like the Canon A-1.

I only have a few complaints about the R3M, and they are very minor. The shutter speed dial is a bit difficult to turn. It's location relative to the film advance lever makes it a little hard to get to for people with large hands. I think it would be difficult to turn with gloves on. If you get an 'A' model, this won't be an issue for you if you shoot in auto.

I have difficulty locating the shutter release button. I have very large hands with long fingers. My finger wants to press the shutter speed dial instead of the shutter release. This will probably go away as I get more familiar with the camera. One of those rediculously expense buttons that screw in where a release cable would go might help me.

I find that I have to press quite hard on the shutter release before the metering will activate. This 'problem' will also disappear with use. I do like how once you activate the meter, it keeps metering for a while. This allows you to point the meter at the location of interest and rotate both the shutter speed dial and aperature as needed.

In order to activate the meter, you have to advance the film which of course charges the shutter. I don't recall reading anything regarding storing the camera with the shutter charged, but the CLE definitely says not to do this and I also store my RB lenses with the shutters discharged as is I believe recommended. Storing cameras with shutters discharged makes sense to my engineering brain. A simple on-off switch for the light meter, like on the Canon FTBn, would solve this issue. I like being able to take a meter reading to see if I think I can even take a shot before charging the shutter.

I am pleased with the camera so far. I haven't gotten any film off of it yet so I don't know if the rangefinder is properly aligned or not. As far as boxes for holding film go, it's a nice little box. I've never held a Leica so I can't compare to that. I'm still getting used to rangefinders in general and have the most difficulty messing with the little focus tabs on the Voigtlander CV lenses, which has nothing to do the R3M and everything do do with my large hands.

Best of luck with your decision!

Regards,
Rob

 

[pdeeh]

Don't buy off web you are sure to get junk.
.

Seems a trifle sweeping ... Does that include all the Classifieds on APUG?

Anyhow, I have a R2A.
Bought it "off the web", not a piece of junk funnily enough
Lovely camera, smooth actions, nicely built.
I have never so much as held a Leica so I can't compare. It isn't a Leica but then it isn't a piece of cheese or a washing machine either.
If I had the money I would buy an R4M so I could use my 28s with framelines.

The one vice they have I think is that mentioned by Dr.C - the vertical alignment of the RF patch can go slightly "off". If this is something that is likely to annoy you, then don't buy one.

However the acid test is always what you think when you pick a camera up. Asking other people opinons is of limited value. I use my OM1n more than I use my R2A these days, not because the "build quality" is any better or worse, but just because it feels nicer to me ...

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

I had an R3A I bought new. Nice camera, not what I would describe as a quiet shutter nor anything I would call great build quality. RF patch started to go out of alignment fairly fast. Sold it after a few months and went used Leica.

 

[ic-racer]

I have a R4M. I got it because a world famous photographer I had the chance to meet said his Leicas were now in a drawer and he uses one. The 21mm coverage built-in viewfinder is not offered by Leitz. I promptly ordered an R4M after the meeting. It is a great camera.

 

[arealitystudios]

I personally own an R3A and I’ve been very happy with it. I bought it brand new off of Camera Quest. It’s well built for the price and the 1:1 finder is rather wonderful. I primarily use it with the 40mm Nokton but I also own a 90mm Leica, the 50mm Zeiss Planar, and the 15mm Heliar. All work well on the camera and I personally have not experienced any issues with rangefinder misalignment. Last year I took I t with me on a road trip from Oregon to New York and it served me very well.

 

[dugrant153]

Good to hear that these are great machines. My guess is that the cameras with issues were outliers from what these cameras can do. Not expecting Leica quality but hoping, since I would purchase new, that they'd be problem free for a while!

 

[ciniframe]

If you cannot afford a good working Leica body then "...lenses and optics with high quality wide open (i.e. F1.4 or F2.0 )" are probably going to be more than you want to spend also. Looking at prices for used 'EX' grade or better Leica lenses for a two or three lens kit makes the cost of a used Leica body seem almost trivial.

 

[dugrant153]

I was looking at Cosina Voigtlander lenses, which would probably help in the price department in terms of lenses and later move to Leica lenses if I felt the need.

 

[ciniframe]

I was looking at Cosina Voigtlander lenses, which would probably help in the price department in terms of lenses and later move to Leica lenses if I felt the need.

Ah! Good choice. I have two CV lenses, a 21 f4 and 35 f2.5, not fast but for myself the compact size and weight and price were important.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Are you in BC, Canada?
Here is no service for CV.
And in the States, here is CameraQuest, only deals with locals for service.
i learned it after my plastic R film plate pins broke and I wasn't able to get spare parts.
Fixed it with superglue, sold it cheap and purchased used Leica M, which is serviceable in ten minutes drive from my work.

 

[dugrant153]

I'm in BC, Canada. I know there's a distributor for them here but thought there is also repair place (or maybe they send it to the states?)

 

[Colin Corneau]

Don't mean to diverge too much but...a friend had a Zeiss rangefinder and I was seriously impressed. The viewfinder alone is noteworthy.

Yes they don't make them anymore but servicing is servicing. Something to consider.

I'd also try find an older Leica M, like the M2, or M3. Heck I've even seen M4's for sale at very good prices...all it takes is patience and time to look.

there's options. Good luck.

 

[Xmas]

Don't mean to diverge too much but...a friend had a Zeiss rangefinder and I was seriously impressed. The viewfinder alone is noteworthy.

Yes they don't make them anymore but servicing is servicing. Something to consider.

I'd also try find an older Leica M, like the M2, or M3. Heck I've even seen M4's for sale at very good prices...all it takes is patience and time to look.

there's options. Good luck.

The Zeiss attract a premium price.
But availability of servicing is desirable.
Difficult choice and you could do with trying as fit to hand is important for some people.
A beaten up Leica M4-2 or Canon VI, P, 7 or 7s are other options.

 

[dugrant153]

I saw a Zeiss Ikon today. Lovely camera but not sure if it fits my hand as well as I'd like (also difficult to align my view to see the shutter speed and the focus patch... maybe it just takes time to get used to.
The worst part was the price. It was about equivalent to a EX condition M4 (about $1,000 CDN)...

Still thinking about the Bessas but considering all the options... and all the potential issues.
Rangefinder mis-alignment. Is this something that happens even to the Leica? Sounds like it happens more often on the Voigtlander vs even an old Leica... but I could be wrong.

 

[Xmas]

If you drop test you miss align a Leica...

Service is important with NOS. couple of years in storage not wonderful.

I can rebuild a Leica shutter from fabric and ribbon Bessa needs whole modules and skill.

I use a Canon LTM and Cosina used lenses, a CanonP is very fast handling, but you need to try lens and camera before you buy, fit to hand critical.

 

[Spicy]

during the short time i owned my R2M, i didn't have any RF issues with it. a kid i met one day while i was out photographing had an R or and R2 (non-M/A) and his RF was out of whack, but it looked like the camera had been to hell and back.

as with everything, a lot of it depends on how the owner treats it. one of my buddies has an M4 and he's had to have the RF re-synched 2-3 times in the 2 years he's owned it because he keeps dropping it/leaving it in his luggage while wheeling it over cobblestones. that sort of high-intensity, low-frequency impact vibration will ravage pretty much any camera. i've yet to have any RF alignment issues with most of my RF cameras.

that being said, i do hear relatively often about the CV cameras having RF's that are out of adjustment. i'm sure it pales in comparison to the number of people happily using theirs every day, but i'm inclined to think that it might be slightly more susceptible to going out of alignment.

 

[Newt_on_Swings]

Though not part of the group you are asking, my bessa r has been great. There's a lot of hate about it being plasticky and alignment issues but mine has kept alignment and works great. My bessa doesn't have the longest base length, but I haven't found it to be really a problem as I don't shoot with anything faster than f2. I'm the second owner, I bought it relatively clean, but I've worn through the back rubber already. There's no current solution that I've seen online to recover the back, maybe I may have to use something like plastidip on it.

 

[dugrant153]

Good to know. It's good to hear that the Bessas seems to be doing pretty good. Totally understand about cameras getting thrown out of alignment with rough use. I don't tend to bang my cameras around but there's the occasional bump if I'm trying to slide between guests at an event.
Whether the Bessas are more or less prone... well, I'm not sure. Based on comments so far, seems like it's just like any other range finder. And good to know that even Leicas get bumped out of alignment.

I guess the best plan would be to buy new and not smack it against every wall?

 

[Pioneer]

I have owned a Bessa R and R2C (Contax lens mount) for almost two years and have had no problems. They are both good cameras. Obviously both the Zeiss Ikons and Leica Ms are built better but I would think that you would have to shoot a huge amount of film, and beat them severely, to wear out one of the CV bodies.

Service is an issue though. If it is difficult to get the Bessa cameras serviced in your area you may be better off looking for a rough, serviceable M6. More expensive for sure but it will last the rest of your life. Or, if you lose interest in it, the Leica holds its value pretty well so resale isn't usually a problem.

 

[dugrant153]

I'll double check with my local Voigtlander dealer on the servicing. Can't recall if they mention it can get serviced locally... although it comes with a warranty so it has to go somewhere!
The good thing is there's a local guy that is well known and apparently does repairs for Leicas and I think possibly Bessa's too.
Good to hear that they've been running well for two years! I actually hope to shoot enough film to wear them out... over many years... that would last long enough for me.
My issue is being all these old used film camera bodies where it's sometimes a bit of luck. CLA's are usually much needed... if not now, then later. Having an option for a new camera is... well, it's nice.

 

[mnemosyne]

I saw a Zeiss Ikon today. Lovely camera but not sure if it fits my hand as well as I'd like (also difficult to align my view to see the shutter speed and the focus patch... maybe it just takes time to get used to.
The worst part was the price. It was about equivalent to a EX condition M4 (about $1,000 CDN)...

Still thinking about the Bessas but considering all the options... and all the potential issues.
Rangefinder mis-alignment. Is this something that happens even to the Leica? Sounds like it happens more often on the Voigtlander vs even an old Leica... but I could be wrong.

Have you ever held a Bessa Rx in your hands? I am asking because if you had difficulties seeing the shutter speeds and the focus patch on the ZM you will likely have similar problems with the Bessa. I owned a R2A and R3A for some time and this is one of the things I couldn't never get really used to, which is why i eventually sold them. Your eye has to be aligned perfectly to be able to see the LEDs and the focus patch properly. A tiny bit off axis and your eyes start searching around in the finder looking for the LEDs. I guess this is a problem for some, while others have no problem with it at all. On the R3A I had problem seeing all of the 40mm frame lines at the same time. For that reason I found the 50mm frame lines much more pleasant to use. I had no problems seeing the 35mm frame line on the R2A though.

Regarding service, the only countries I am aware of that offer a domestic repair service are Japan (Cosina mothership) and the US (through cameraquest). Even in Germany, the camera has to be returned to Japan through the local importer (Voigtländer/Ringfoto). So doublecheck that with your importer in Canada.

What I liked about the Bessas: lightweight (easy on your shoulders), reliable, crystal clear viewfinder, finish, price (used)
What I didn't like: lightweight (not as stable when shooting slower shutter times as a Leica M), finder LEDs, shutter sound, manual frame lever, camera had an annoying tendency to "topple over" when worn with a shoulder strap