Etui
Andy, I don't doubt what you're saying (in your previous posts). Rather that the vast majority of Patent Etui's that come up for sale are fitted with Tessar's or the Meyer Trioplan, and Compur or Vario shutters. My guess is that the number fitted with Ibsor shutters would have been quite small, I've not come across one yet, but then the very similar Prontor Press shutter isn't that common on more modern LF lenses either.
no doubt you are correct with more Etui sold with tessar, after all if thats what most commonly seen for sale nowadays, it stands to reason there must of been more sold with that configuration...a very popular lens!! Ibsor shutters are likely more common than you realise or have seen i think...a little search atm will reveal what i am sure you have already seen with helio,,,
you have to forgive us for any scepticism but it would be nice to see an example. One problem with
"well known collector camera encyclopaedia type books" is that they often show the rarities that collectors like to acquire, and for most of us the only time we'd see those models is in those books
Is it just scepticism? Keep your eyes open and it/they will come up
respectfully Ian, any long term collector of various camera can indentify the short falls in various camera encyclopaedia, if you are familiar with these (and you indicate you are) then i do not understand why you asking for the titles!! a simple amozon search will get you on thr right track? Yes these are scarce but if they were common my next door neighbour would know about them as well as you
I would not have passed the information if i thought it was sceptical, you dont know me at this point so i will excuse that. However, rest assured that i do not feel comfortable passing information unless i have several sources of information and confident (you may understand that is difficult though dealing with antique cameras! swings and roundabouts! i never believe much until i have researched it). My nature is to understate things rather than overstate, if not, i would say so if there is a chance its unreliable.
Perhaps you could tell us what books to look in for ourselves.
you have over 4000 posts! and have written marvellous posts on plate camera related articles. are you not familiar with the first step, Mckeowns? even that book will give you some extra detail on this camera than what you have said.
Yes, Patent Etui's do appear to have been quite common cameras, and they were manufactured for at least 18 years. I saw a production figure somewhere of approximately 100 camera's a day for the KW factory around 1934, that's roughly 25,000 cameras a year presumably not all Etui's by then. That seems feasible as in comparison Compur were manufacturing around 500,000 shutters & Zeiss over 100,00 lenses a year.
I am familiar with the estimate of the shutter production as well, it is well documented. the gem is that you have production figures for the KW werkes. So you must have some books,catologs, documents or..is it on the www somewhere ? lovely bit of information
In your list of advantages/disadvantages I think you've missed one important point, the camera's lighter weight is an advantage for portability but will be slightly dis-advantageous when using the camera hand-held, the lack of mass will make it harder to hold steady at slow shutter speeds. It's a great pity film packs are no longer available, but half a dozen loaded 9x12 holders isn't that heavy and would slip easily into a coat pocket.
A fair point; i was thinking on the fly and with this camera my prejudice was to its advantages but you make a very fair point. In most instances as photographers we prefer heavier cameras (me at least).
my point on camera weight and film packs is somewhat redundant, although perhaps interesting. the metal film pack casing (9x12) weigh around 120g depending on the maker, the film packs (fully loaded with 12 shots) weigh only around 110g, so obviously total around 230g for 12 shots. Then an extra 110g for an extra 12 shots. =total 24 shots for 330g, not bad eh!!!and so on for extra 12 shots
however one of things we have to put up with (i dont mind) to use these old gems is the extra weight of film holders (which dimishishes the advantage of skimping weight on the camera by a mere 1 or two hundred grams! if that makes sence to you).So if we carry 24 shots around with us now it pretty much equels 2.4Kg (@90-110g depending on the maker of the film holder+sheath+film). 6 shots sounds fine, but if your keen or use the camera to its full potential than most people would use more than 6 shots. two or so Kg in your spare pocket is not as appealing---i dont mind, heck i get someone else to carry em half the time,,,but thats another story
BTW both my Patent Etui's have sports finders, I guess I've looked at well over 250 Etui, on Ebay & elsewhere and almost all the 9x12's have had sports finders, but not all the 6.5x9's, perhaps a third don't have one.
fair enough, many i have seen havnt had them but i appreciate the difference, many of my illustrations show it as well (not all)
I don't know what the true definition of Double & Triple extension bellows is, I assume it's 2 & 3 times the focal length of a standard lens for the format, or the fixed lens fitted. That's the case with my triple extension 10x8 camera 12" lens, 37½" bellows extension. On that basis an Etui with a 135mm Tessar would have Double extension, but the same camera & bellows wouldn't be double extension if the 150mm Tessar was fitted.
i find this a very interesting question. because it has/ or used to always puzzle me as well. however basically (not counting the math which i am not sure always adds up) it seems to be that many makers (varies) considered a camera that extended only a few inches (1-2 or so) a single extension camera (no extension was not mentioned as extending). a camera that extended its full length of bed (not accurate i know) was considered a double extension and obviously a camera that had another table to extend was a triple extension (i have a few of those as we are discussing here (not counting old wooden field camera) but they are less common). i dont doubt i have something to learn on this but my 'basic' rules have gotten me by. there may well be a precise math equation that works.
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