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Donald Miller

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jdef said:
Maybe the reason that technique is so prevalent for so many of us, is that there is an artistic void in our work. Discussing/debating materials and techniques accounts for the vast majority of discussion here, with the occassional thread on "seeing" or "vision", but virtually no discussion of content or meaning. I think the medium itself is stagnating and lacks any real visionaries. I think that realism, commercialism, and duplicability have had a moderating effect on photographers and photography. It is my hope that digital imaging will liberate photography the way that photography liberated painting. Use digital technology for commercial, scientific and consumer applications, and leave photography to artists.

jdef,
I agree with your sentiments about the existence of an artistic void. I also think that digital technology is certainly more capable of improved artistic expression then traditional photography. More capable and more easily accomplished...no doubt about it for me, in my experience. I say this from the standpoint of not owning a digital camera.

In my frame of reference the one thing that is missing in this digital equation is the practitioner his/her self. Whether this technology will be used to produce meaningful images remains to be seen. The capability to produce fresh improved artistic expression does not guarantee this result, in my opinion.

When I say this I am speaking of images that are not improved images of what has gone before. What has been done and redone ad nauseum.

I think that I have been fooling myself. But I don't think that I am alone in this position. The fact that a silver image has a supposed longer life or has a certain panache is of little meaningful consequence if the image produced has no genuine creative artistic impetus.

I have gotten to a point that 99% of what I see is dull, boring, and uninspiring. That is true of my work and the work of others. I indicated to Lee Carmichael several weeks ago that I am sick to death of looking at pictures of things (people, places, buildings, peppers, Yosemite, mountains and the rest of that stuff) whether those are mine or others.

This is my gut wrenching rant for this day. Good day to you.
 

blansky

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Donald I hate to say this, but it looks like it is time for you to put your cameras away for a while.

Book yourself a flight to some tropical destination, park your ass on the beach and reread Zen Mind Beginner Mind.

You are burnnnnnned out. Classic case. Seen it a million times.

The other thing is, pardon the expression, you need to get laid.

You need an attitude adjustment and a change of perspective.

It'll make things right again. You're just a little out of sync with the universe.


It's a damn lucky thing I was able to hear your cry for help.


I'll send you a bill for the advice when you get back. By the way, there is a money back guarantee.


Later,

Michael
 

mark

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Donald

I have gotten to a point that 99% of what I see is dull, boring, and uninspiring. That is true of my work and the work of others. I indicated to Lee Carmichael several weeks ago that I am sick to death of looking at pictures of things (people, places, buildings, peppers, Yosemite, mountains and the rest of that stuff) whether those are mine or others.

This is too bad. Do you know anyone with a toddler? If so, follow them around for a few days. Try to see the world through their eyes. Maybe the newness of everything will wear off on you.

Jdef

I think the medium itself is stagnating and lacks any real visionaries. I think that realism, commercialism, and duplicability have had a moderating effect on photographers and photography.

I don't get it? What would a real visionary accomplish? How have those three things moderated photographers and photography?
 

Francesco

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Look first for subject matter and balance and then look for print quality. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder n'est-ce pas?
 

photomc

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The post from JDEF and Donald caught me by surprise...yet I think Michael is right - the word is 'BURN OUT'. At this point in time, I would say that there is very little art that is 'NEW' or 'Fresh' no matter what the medium. That being said, I would think that it is time for the darkroom to be shut down, cameras put away and the brain slipped into neutral -- at least as far as photography goes.

Let's face it, if you aren't excited by what you do - why do it? If the day comes that I do not feel a little excitement when an image comes up in the developer, then maybe it will be time for me to listen to my own advice.

You both have your opinion, and I respect it, but for now, I still love to 'See' - with or without a camera, so I will go out create new images for myself, and if someone else likes them great - if no one does, that's is OK too!

Good Luck to both of you...give your 'Seeing Eye' a rest, maybe you can enjoy this again someday.
 

Donald Miller

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blansky said:
Donald I hate to say this, but it looks like it is time for you to put your cameras away for a while.

Book yourself a flight to some tropical destination, park your ass on the beach and reread Zen Mind Beginner Mind.

You are burnnnnnned out. Classic case. Seen it a million times.

The other thing is, pardon the expression, you need to get laid.

You need an attitude adjustment and a change of perspective.

It'll make things right again. You're just a little out of sync with the universe.


It's a damn lucky thing I was able to hear your cry for help.


I'll send you a bill for the advice when you get back. By the way, there is a money back guarantee.


Later,

Michael

Michael,

Thank you for your well reasoned input. It may very well be that you are correct. I don't know. I will say that it isn't so much that I am burned out with photography as it is the direction that my photography has been heading.

I am just absolutely fed up with pictures of things. (Pretty things, pretty places, pretty people). These images convey absolutely nothing to me. It isn't that the things that I see have no meaning. It is the images of things that I see having no meaning. I hope that I am making myself clear in this distinction because I don't think that I did earlier.

There is an image (digital for God's sake) on photo net opening page of an old man at the piano. Now that image says something apart from the 99% of stuff that I see. I wouldn't care if it was shot with a 620 box camera and printed on a grocery bag.

I think that where I am is at a plateau. I will consolidate myself at this point and then go on from here. I have some idea of composite images. Jerry Uelsmann type stuff. Something that has some intellectual componant to it. I am going to give this some strong consideration. Step aside from the masses. Be me. Make sense?

Later

PS: On getting laid...you forgot my escapade with the "model"...I forgive you for forgetting. After all you are getting older and the booze does kill of some of the brain after awhile. You know she was a whiz on the trampoline...damn near killed me. My back hasn't been the same since then. You may go ahead and send me your bill...I'll send my IOU.
 

Tom Duffy

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jdef said:
Maybe the reason that technique is so prevalent for so many of us, is that there is an artistic void in our work. Discussing/debating materials and techniques accounts for the vast majority of discussion here, with the occassional thread on "seeing" or "vision", but virtually no discussion of content or meaning. I think the medium itself is stagnating and lacks any real visionaries. I think that realism, commercialism, and duplicability have had a moderating effect on photographers and photography. It is my hope that digital imaging will liberate photography the way that photography liberated painting. Use digital technology for commercial, scientific and consumer applications, and leave photography to artists.

JDEF,
As I read your post, I was amazed! I agree with you completely...My Gosh! the guy's a genius! Until I got to the last sentence; which I disagreed with completely...
In the last couple of "deep" threads, I've been making a couple of points:
1A. There are those who see and those who don't. Those who see can enhance the presentation of their ideas with mastery of technique.
1B. Those who can't see enhance their mastery of technique because they have nothing to say.
2A. the future of photography is digital. Those who create good art aren't necessarily the ones who most want to create good art. Striving doesn't matter; Its whether you can see, or not. The great majority of those who can see will be using digital cameras because the great majority of cameras will be digital.
2B. There will always be those who create good art, who hold the "print as object" in high esteem and will use medium and large format cameras to produce analogue Black and White prints of unsurpassed beauty. But they will be in the great minority.

I think many of us in the 50ish age group are a little tired and fatigued by photography. We've taken thousands of pictures, know the history, and have seen the same iconic pictures and read the same articles in photography magazines since we were teenagers. The joke about View Camera magazine - "If I see one more picture of a slot canyon, or another semi-draped female, I'm going to puke!

But, it's not all bad. I have a solid body of work, my kids growing up, which are ultimately anyone's most important pictures. And they will be appreciated. Anything I do better than I did before is good on a personal level, even if I don't knock Adams or Sternfeld or Nixon or Gursky off their well deserved pedestals. Sternfeld has taken pictures with an 8x10 that I'd be glad to have taken with a 35mm!

And unlike many here, I like "commercial" work. Much of what I see in Photojournalism, Fashion, and Portraiture, I really like. The photographers in PDN are the ones who are taking the pictures which define our society as much as Henri Cartier-Bresson did.

Take a look back through the galleries. There's a lot of good, original work in there and it isn't all the medium format stuff. Naming a name, Francesco's 8x10 stuff has an originality, freshness and vision that shows its still possible to do that 150 years after photography's invention.
take care,
Tom
 

blansky

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Donald;

All kidding aside, and I'm not qualified to make judgements but when I started the Sunni vs Shiite thread, you were one of the Shiites that I had in mind.

I'm not sure but I think you came from a very technical field as your career choice. You are highly technical and well educated, and obviously self educated.

That being said, you are probably feeling the shortfall from the technical side of photography. An image can be the most perfect technical image that can be made but it also can fail horribly as an interesting impactful image.

The photographs with "soul" that we all try to achieve can only come, in my opinion, when we leave the technical behind. Our minds get too caught in technical perfection to allow us to be free to collect the magic around us. We need to free our minds and let things come to us.

I don't have an answer, except that, I have gone through this before. I have often looked at my own work and said, this isn't working. I know I'm not the most talented guy in the world but I know my forte is working with people, so I persevere.

I also feel that one advantages of large format cameras is also one of it's main shortfalls. It is a very deliberate, cumbersome piece of equipment, which takes time and precision to operate. Meanwhile the magic may have just walked by, and by the time your look on the groundglass, it is long gone.

I don't know maybe free yourself from the shackles of large format for a while, take out a 35mm and head out into the world and shoot.

Good luck,

By the way I ordered Littman's 4x5 snapshot camera to do just that same thing. We'll see.

P.S. I looked at the image on photonet and I has become clear to me that you are at heart a portrait photographer. Maybe like I said before, it's time you put some people in your pictures.


Michael
 

Michael A. Smith

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(Traveling now and scant time to hook into the Internet.)

But thanks to several of you for mentioning me in this thread and to Don, for recommending our Vision and Technique Workshop (although you have never taken it).

First: I have never, ever, ever made a photograph with my collectors or buyers in mind. Never. Once, in 1979 as I was leaving the Chiracahua Mountains heading north there appeared before me a "perfect" scene: good foreground and midground, mountains in the background, a sky that meshed exactly, and great light. I said to myself, " if I make a photograph of this I will sell lots of prints of it." I paused a brief moment, and realized that the only reason I would be making that photograph would be to sell it. I debated with myself for a minute or two whether to make the picture or not. I decided not to, because the only reason I would have been making it would have been to sell it. It was too easy--no personal growth would have been involved. And if there is no personal growth, why bother? It is the experience of photographing that is important. Consider the photograph to be a bonus. If someone ever wants to buy a photograph consider it a triple bonus--but selling a photograph is never the reason I (or Paula) ever make a photograph.

Seeing photographically is what it is all about. Sorry, Aggie, you were unable to attend our two-evening, one-day " Vision" workshop right after the LF conference. It would have definitely goten you out of your comfort zone.

Photography is all about seeing photographically. The technical part can easily be learned. (And so much of it is irrelevant--I haven't a clue what Scheinpflug refers to.) The visual part can also be learned--you just have to get started in the right direction. I think what we do in our workshops is figuratively spin people around and get them pointed in the right direction. Here are a few comments from participants at this last workshop.

"I just wanted to drop you a note to let you know how much I enjoyed the workshop and how refreshing it was to the emphasis on seeing and creativity." (This from a fellow who has taken many workshops.)

"I would like to thank you for the wonderful workshop this past weekend in Carmel. Not quite a week has passed and I find myself continually thinking about your visionary approach to photography...the concepts of the rhythms, relationships, connectedness, edges, movement keep replaying in my mind. Though I believe some of this to be intuitive by nature, to actually for the first time have an intellectual understanding will have an incredible impact on my photography as I move forward. When I mentioned that "I wanted to discover my place in the world and it's relationship with photography" this is not what I expected but is in fact what I needed!"

About two years ago we ran into a fellow who had taken our workshop a year previously. We asked him how his photography was going. He replied, "Great. I am having the time of my life. I go out with my camera every single day." We were astonished--who has the time to go out with their camera every day? And then he added, " And one of these days I am going to bring film."

Sure, just do it. But really, you do need to know what you are doing--visually. You need to be pointed in the right direction, otherwise you are just spinning your wheels, making, more or less, the same photographs over and over again.

Recommendation: if you fully understand what you are photographing, do not bother. You will not learn anything, you will only be making a "good photograph." If, on the other hand, you do not fully understand what your camera's lens is seeing, you might have something there that will push you beyond where you think you could go, visually.make the photograph. Personal growth can ensue.

But the real bottom line is to enjoy the process; "Pleasure in the process" (to quote myself) "is ultimately what it is all about." Just go out and have a good time and don't worry about all the rest of it.
 
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Aggie

Aggie

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My comfort zone is taking pictures without a person in them. What i am embarking on is all about people, and I find I'm not as comfortable with it. I will be using natural light for as much of it as I can. This will be a series of 144 pictures (ok a gross, and that is a clue as to what it is about) I have given myself a time frame of 2 years toi conicide with the start of a major undertaking (a walk across country) by one of the models.

I may make the pilgramage to Napa to pick Michael's brain on techniques working with people. It is that long journey to the land of the grape that has me hesitating.

BTW <ichael, I heard from the guys at Lens and Repro that the Littman is a great camera. Which lense option did you go for?

That and the other Michael as in Smith is not as fearsome as he sounds. Paula is an absolute sweetheart. I would have stayed, but hubby had to go back to work. After all he does pay for my photography habit.
 

Ed Sukach

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Michael A. Smith said:
Recommendation: if you fully understand what you are photographing, do not bother. You will not learn anything, you will only be making a "good photograph." If, on the other hand, you do not fully understand what your camera's lens is seeing, you might have something there that will push you beyond where you think you could go, visually.make the photograph. Personal growth can ensue.

But the real bottom line is to enjoy the process; "Pleasure in the process" (to quote myself) "is ultimately what it is all about." Just go out and have a good time and don't worry about all the rest of it.

Very well said, Michael.. and worthy of the repetition and long quote.

I could not agree more. I would suggest one change -
"Personal growth *WILL* ensue."
It is inevitable.
 

blansky

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Aggie:

The 150. And feel free to pick my brains at any time, what there is left of them.

And I live in Sonoma County, not snobby Napa County.



Michael
 
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Aggie

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Ok will take me an hour to get to your part of the woods. Let me know when the Littman arrives. I've talked the hubby into one, it just has to wait until next year. I wanted to get either the 120. I like the fact they are more portable and still give you the large negative.
 

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Donald, see http://www.czarnykwadrat.republika.pl/ for more of those portraits.

Michael (Smith), I reluctantly must advocate the occasional picture made for the sake of commercial value. Use the money to buy film. Use the exposure to expand your audience. Wasn't it Duchamp who said that part of an artist's job was to get the work out into the public, that one owed it to one's art?

Finally Aggie, consider these words of the artist Hokusai:

""From the age of five I have had a mania for sketching the forms of things. From about the age of fifty I produced a number of designs, yet of all I drew prior to the age of seventy there is truly nothing of great note. At the age of seventy-two I finally apprehended something of the true quality of birds, animals, insects, fish and of the vital nature of grasses and trees. Therefore, at eighty I shall have made some progress, at ninety I shall have penetrated even further the deeper meaning of things, at one hundred I shall have become truly marvelous, and at one hundred and ten, each dot, each line shall surely possess a life of its own. I only beg that gentlemen of sufficiently long life take care to note the truth of my words."
 

glbeas

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Don, maybe it's time to pick up the old Nikon and a roll of Tri-X and start taking pictures of people! Theres a mystery for you to unravel. They can be the easiest and yet the hardest pictures there are to take. I'm still wading ankle deep in the waters myself.
I hope you do find your direction, it makes life so much more rewarding when you do.
 

Michael A. Smith

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Posted: 05 May 2004 13:39    Post subject:
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Donald, see http://www.czarnykwadrat.republika.pl/ for more of those portraits.

From bjorke, "Michael (Smith), I reluctantly must advocate the occasional picture made for the sake of commercial value. Use the money to buy film. Use the exposure to expand your audience. Wasn't it Duchamp who said that part of an artist's job was to get the work out into the public, that one owed it to one's art? "

An artist's job is to be true to himself/herself. If you want to make an occasional photograph for the sake of commercial value, by all means do so. I cannot anticipate ever doing so. All it would be then is just a job--something just to make money. If Making money were my interest I would do something else. There are a lot better and sure-fire ways to make money than making fine-art photographs.
 

Ed Sukach

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blansky said:
The photographs with "soul" that we all try to achieve can only come, in my opinion, when we leave the technical behind. Our minds get too caught in technical perfection to allow us to be free to collect the magic around us. We need to free our minds and let things come to us.

I agree with this - but I think it is a tad too intense.

When the "technicals" become secondary - faded to nearly obscurity - they are most useful. Man is a finite creature - we only have so much energy to expend at any given moment. If the greater apart of that energy is directed toward gaining some sort of "technical perfection" we have far less to devote to our "intuition".

GO out and "DO". No one is perfectly efficient - occasionally a photograph is ruined due to technical "misses", but that is FAR more desirable than to miss the intuitive content in the first place.

Sometimes we succeed; sometimes we don't. Sometimes we succeed and we don't quite realize it at the time.

This is a slippery, sometimes frustrating, game where many things happen that we will never understand. So is life.

All we can do is keep on ... and to me, that is enough. More than enough.
 
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Aggie

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Donald Miller said:
"Those who say do not know. Those who know do not say".

I take exception to this quote. How would knowledge ever be shared if no one ever spoke. To say that those that speak do not know is trite. Seems it would be better to learn from debates. Heated they may become, but they give many a chance to see differing view points. What is sad is this medium does not give face to face contact of the person posting and what is truly in their mind at the time. I may not agree with things that are said, but I watch most often and see how the debate unfolds. When clarification needs to be made, hopefully it would be done in a civil manner. Too many are and I am no exception are fast to lash back.

Benjamin Franklin had it right. He said, "Fart proudly!" (there is even a book out titled that with a compilation of his early writings) It is worse to restrain ourselves from speech than to voice and understand what the other thinks. My step Daughter sent me a cartoon a couple of days ago that adds to this notion. the punch line under the man in agony was, "Go ahead and fart. If you don't it travels up the spine to the brain where the shitty ideas come from." (excuse the bad word) So let the debates rage, just keep it civil. Ask questions if you need clarification. If you have no questions or nothing to contribute, just read or skip the whole thread.
 

Ed Sukach

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Aggie, you have just HAVE to learn to be more direct. Mincing words is not a good trait. :roll:

If you do, let me know. This I've GOTTA see!!
 

Donald Miller

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Aggie said:
Donald Miller said:
"Those who say do not know. Those who know do not say".

I take exception to this quote. How would knowledge ever be shared if no one ever spoke. To say that those that speak do not know is trite. Seems it would be better to learn from debates. Heated they may become, but they give many a chance to see differing view points. What is sad is this medium does not give face to face contact of the person posting and what is truly in their mind at the time. I may not agree with things that are said, but I watch most often and see how the debate unfolds. When clarification needs to be made, hopefully it would be done in a civil manner. Too many are and I am no exception are fast to lash back.

Benjamin Franklin had it right. He said, "Fart proudly!" (there is even a book out titled that with a compilation of his early writings) It is worse to restrain ourselves from speech than to voice and understand what the other thinks. My step Daughter sent me a cartoon a couple of days ago that adds to this notion. the punch line under the man in agony was, "Go ahead and fart. If you don't it travels up the spine to the brain where the shitty ideas come from." (excuse the bad word) So let the debates rage, just keep it civil. Ask questions if you need clarification. If you have no questions or nothing to contribute, just read or skip the whole thread.

Aggie,
You are entitled to your viewpoint...crudely expressed nontheless. I stand by my quote. I guess this is just the latest of our continuing history of disagreements.
 

Ed Sukach

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Aggie said:
Benjamin Franklin had it right. He said, "Fart proudly!" (there is even a book out titled that with a compilation of his early writings) It is worse to restrain ourselves from speech than to voice and understand what the other thinks.

I think Mark Twain wrote a book on the same subject -- "1609"??? was the title??

"It PROVES that God has a sense of humor ... S/He gave man the capability to fart."

I've thought of that as an excuse for avoiding jury duty...:

"Your Honor - I'd love to serve, but ... this is embarrassing ... I don't think the jury would want me to be sequestered with them. I suffer from uncontrollable flatulence ...." and let go with one.

If one could keep a straight face -- it just might work...
 

bjorke

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Donald Miller said:
"Those who say do not know. Those who know do not say".

And those who say they don't know.... ?

This is just Epimenides's Paradox, reframed.
 

d880640

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Great courses in photography and "Seeing" http://www.mdhallarts.org/catalog-fall/photographyfilmandvideoclassesforteensandadults.html
classes are on Zone system; vision (seeing); large format lf; black and white (b&w) Advanced and beginning; Digital Photography from $100 - 55 in Maryland Hall for the Creative Arts 801 Chase Street, Annapolis, Maryland 21401 Local: 410/263-5544 Baltimore: 410/269-1087 Washington: 301/261-1553 Fax: 410/263-5114 Contact: info@mdhallarts.org
I am a part time student at the above. Dick Bond is a wonderful teacher there. dave
 
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