The placement of Selenium in the processing chain

[mshchem]

I love Selenium toner . The only reason to use hardener is if you scratch prints, or dry fiber base prints on a belt dryer. Last night I printed a bunch of 5x7s on Ilford RC. I used the Ilford method , at 70 F, 2 minutes in Bromophen, a brief dip in Ilford citric acid stop, 30 seconds in Hypam fixer (1&4). I rinsed the prints briefly, when I was done I toned all of them at once with KRST, 70F for 5 minutes. Final wash and dried with my Ilford dryer. No problems.

If it ain't broke don't fix it (or in this case harden it)

I use Kodak Rapid Fix with hardener for fiber base prints, especially when I tone the prints. I know everyone says it's a bad idea . Back in the day everything was hardened and toned. I use hypo clear and wash in 70F water. According to Kenneth Mees hardener didn't effect diffusion rate of chemicals in and out of the gelatin, this is 1930's era work.

The older I get the more I like RC Ilford method.

 

[mshchem]

I know that this thread has been dormant for nearly a year, but if anyone is concerned with toner being impeded by a hardening fixer, one can use a bath of hardener alone prior to the final wash.
The little bottles of Part B hardener that come with Kodak Rapid fixer (in some sizes) work perfectly, diluted 1+13.

Matt, I didn't say what I started to say

YOU ARE MAKING A IMPORTANT POINT.
Yes, as a final step hardener is a good approach. definitely see softening of the emulsion in KRST. Probably even using a hardening fix, it would help to harden again after toning.
Best Regards Mike

 

[Louis Nargi]

I tone with selenium. when I am ready I develop my print and fix in a non harding fixer of sodium thiosulfate for 3 minutes and then I smack them in water till I get ready to tone I mix fresh fixer fix for 2 more minutes, the prints go into the toner from there and then in a perma wash for 2 minutes then wash as usual. Never any stains

 

[darkroommike]

Mike, I've done this in the past. Same drill Ektalure, F5 two bath ,I usually would rinse off the fix, maybe 30 seconds , then into KRST. No staining because there was no unfixed silver left in the paper. I've tried going directly into KRST after 1 minute in Ilford Rapid fix 1+4, I got stains. I figured (right or wrong ) that the Ilford method of going into a wash before toning gave the residual Ilford fixer enough time to convert the extra silver halides in the print??? When I followed the Ilford method I got nice prints until I had prints stick to my drier belt.
I made hundreds of prints 30 years back following the procedure you spelled out above. They still look great. I think my problem with sticking, came from trying to mix old and new . Who dries prints with a belt dryer these days other than me? ? The ammonium thiosulfate revolution, and unfounded fears of hardener ruining your toning, spelled the end for F5 and other powdered Na thiosulfate fixers.
I'm going to make a 10 foot long tray rocker, then I will sit back and spend eternity fixing, clearing, toning and washing prints

There's a lot of ways to make great prints. Best Regards (the other Iowa ) Mike

We had a tray rocker at South Dakota State (back in the day) actually a plumbed three compartment sink. It was made of welded stainless steel, had three drains on the bottom directly plumbed into a drain line running the length of the sink. We usually put an 11x14 tray in the developer compartment so that we used less developer, the stop bath and fixer compartments were a generous 16x20, stop and fix got changed out once a week and the developer was dumped daily or more often we we were really printing. Running water at the sink for just the rinse out of the rocker sink. There was a motor and an eccentric link on a pulley that gently rocked the thing all day long. Prints were briefly drained and carried out to the big Pako washer in the next room, each batch got a brief wash and then sat until we had enough prints for a full wash. We usually washed two batches per day and then a brief dip in Pakosol, and onto the big Pako Drum Dryer. Developer was Dektol, stop bath was bulk acetic acid (50% for the time I was there we got a big barrel from Govt. surplus, and fixer was plain old Kodak Fixer (yellow box to make 5 gallons).

On the processing workflow, I believe even Ilford says that you have to either use "old school" or "new school" and that there is no between.

 

[mshchem]

On the processing workflow, I believe even Ilford says that you have to either use "old school" or "new school" and that there is no between.

Good point. I still like printing fiber better than RC. I would love to see some of the old Pako "doping machines" huge rocking developer and fixing machines. For decades I was totally old school Kodak F5 fixer, hypo clearing agent, wash forever. I have archival washers now, I hooked up a circulation pump, on one, gets a lot more circulation without wasting so much water.

RC can be a pain to process. If you follow the book you need to go start to dry for each print. Holding prints in a water bath is not ok.

I should go back to the way my Dad and I did it in 1965. Medalist cut to 4x5, Dektol , fixer, hypo clear and a Kodak print blotter roll!