The placement of Selenium in the processing chain

mshchem said:

Hope this helps, Best Mike

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Yes, this will help.

I just now need to convert the thinking of HCA to using raw chemicals - being Sodium Sulphite. The HCA I am using is one table spoon of Na2SO3 per litre of water - this was based on a advice I was given by a local, backed up by the response in this thread - https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/making-my-own-hca.66788/#post-944069 . My biggest issue is I really don't know how this compares to the HCA solutions that you have suggested, when mixing 1 + 3 KRST.

Also, isn't 1+3 KRST quite strong?

Cheers

hoffy said:

Yes, this will help.

I just now need to convert the thinking of HCA to using raw chemicals - being Sodium Sulphite. The HCA I am using is one table spoon of Na2SO3 per litre of water - this was based on a advice I was given by a local, backed up by the response in this thread - https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/making-my-own-hca.66788/#post-944069 . My biggest issue is I really don't know how this compares to the HCA solutions that you have suggested, when mixing 1 + 3 KRST.

Also, isn't 1+3 KRST quite strong?

Cheers

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Yes 1+3 is concentrated, the more dilute, the cooler the tone. You can use it at 1+9, and get excellent results, takes a little longer. Your sulfite solution should work fine .Ansel Adams used a Kodalk bath , to make sure that the acidic fixer was neutralized before toning in Selenium. When I make up Se toner I keep it strong ,tones quick , if you leave VC paper in for 10 minutes or longer you can get some wild split toning . The old Forte polywarmtone paper really split .
Probably best to start more dilute, the ammonia fumes will be more tolerable as well.
I like to see an almost instant change and the toner is cheap and lasts forever at 1+3. Get on Ebay and buy a Kodak book "Quality Enlarging with Kodak B/W Papers " publication no. G-1. It was published in 1982 . Fabulous book, cheap 5 to 15 USD, has great section on toning . This is where Kodak shows 1+3, and 1+9,, dilutions. Also tons of great processing info. I usually tone a few prints then pour the toner back into a liter bottle so the ammonia odor doesn't get to me.
Once you get hooked on the increase in D max and the details it pulls out of highlights you will be addicted. Make sure you fully process and dry the print before judging your final print exposure . Density will increase with toning and dry down . When I feel I'm close I make a 5% bracket over and under my best toned print. I wash and dry. Then the next day after my brain is fresh I pick the best to produce a few of my final prints.
Best Mike

OK, thanks again. How does your method treat the mid tones and highlights?

Hoffy and Mike,

There's more than one way to skin a cat, of course, but let me point out a couple of things.

First, mixing selenium toner with HCA. Ansel Adams recommended this in his books, but it is simply not best practice. If you are relying on the HCA (or extra sulfite/bisulfite) in the toner to give you the benefits of a wash aid, then you must discard the toner when the HCA component is exhausted; i.e., way before the selenium toner itself stops working. This is less than environmentally friendly and costly. If you use your toner to exhaustion (or replenish - see below), then the activity of the HCA component as a wash aid has long been exhausted.

Your wash aid should be a separate step and it should be just before the wash in order to be effective. A soak in HCA after fixing and before toning can adjust the pH of the paper, displace some thiosulfates in the emulsion. An HCA (or Kodalk or other alkaline) bath just before toning may be needed if your fixer is pretty acid and hardening (F6 like Mike uses) so that's not necessarily a superfluous step in his workflow. However, to act as a wash aid, you need an HCA step immediately prior to washing. Note that there are alkaline or more neutral fixers that can be used so that you don't need a pH adjustment bath before the toner. See my workflow above.

Toning fully washed and dried prints like Hoffy describes is a fine workflow; I'm assuming: 1. water soak 2. toner 3. optional rinse 4. wash aid (with reduced capacity if the rinse is omitted) 4. wash. With what you described, Hoffy, I think 2 hours for fiber-base prints may be overkill. My standard time for a similar workflow is 60 minutes. However, test (HT-2) for residual hypo to be sure.

If you are interested, search for my posts here and on the LF forum about replenishing and reusing selenium toner. I find it not only more economical, but more convenient and a whole lot more environmentally responsible. The basic practice is to add KRST stock to the toner solution when activity gets too low. Toners used this way form a precipitate that needs to be filtered before and after use; I use coffee or lab filters. I have two gallons of toner going for more than 10 years now. Prints test great for residual silver and hypo.

Best,

Doremus

Thanks for your reply Doremus.

I am having a look through my notes and have found where I have toned before, which in all honesty was a bit of an educated guess:

I totally forgot that I made these notes. The bottle of KRST is about 8 years old and about half full. I hope its OK, as I plan to get into it again this weekend, based on the info that both you and Mike have suggested. My biggest issue is I don't have a print washer for the 12x16 prints I am doing, so I'll be tray washing with a siphon (hmmmm, I'm thinking a print washer might be the next project!)

Cheers

I agree with you. I do use fresh hypo clear after toning, if I'm following my chart 2 to 5 minutes. I treat HCA like developer. Oxygen kills it.I make up fresh from full bottles of stock every time .

And I think Ansel tossed his toner 1:9 after every use. I agree that mixing toner with HCA is rediculous. Hence forth

IF you look at recommended shelf life for HCA makes me think using a scoop of fresh sodium sulfite each time may be best practice?

Sulfite is a preservative in developer , it's the component that sacrifices it self when oxygen invades. I suspect I have used some pretty exhausted HCA over the years. I'm trying to get into the habit of only keeping full bottles of stock. I never have saved working solutions.

PS I use F6 fixer because it's a good old non stinky, HARDENING fix. I use a Pako belt dryer this keeps the emulsion hard so it doesn't stick to the belt.

mshchem said:

IF you look at recommended shelf life for HCA makes me think using a scoop of fresh sodium sulfite each time may be best practice?

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mshchem said:

PS I use F6 fixer because it's a good old non stinky, HARDENING fix. I use a Pako belt dryer this keeps the emulsion hard so it doesn't stick to the belt.

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It's easy to make a wash aid from dry chemicals. The basic recipe is:
Sodium Sulfite 20 g
Sodium bisulfite 0.2 g
Water to make 1 liter

However, the proportions are not that critical. I use a spoon recipe:
Sodium Sulfite 1 Tablespoon
Sodium bisulfite a generous pinch
Water to make 1 liter

As for hardening fixer: unless you have specific reason, you'll find both toning and washing more efficient with a non-hardening fixer. I used to mix my own F-6 back in the day, but switched to a rapid fix long ago (I use Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam without hardener now). Fixing is faster and more efficient too; no more waiting around for 10 minutes... You say you need the hardener for the belt dryer. If so Hypam or Kodak Rapid Fix plus hardener will speed things up for you. My question, however, is: do you really need a hardening fix to use the dryer?

Best,

Doremus

I'm using Hypam or Rapid.

After a couple years experimenting I have established this workflow with ilford MGFB Classic, Warmtone, and Art 300 VC papers with no residual fixer or toning stains.
I am usually working in batches of 10-15 prints so wash times below may be longer as things soak between steps.
I have very neutral slightly soft tap water here in Georgia with few chemical contaminates except chlorine. I don't seem to get the ilford green cast that people complain about.


Day1
Develop, stop, rapid Fix 1min, rinse, HCA 5mins, wash 30mins, dry naturally.

Day 2
Seleium Only - presoak, selenium 1:20 3 -20mins depending on desired color shift, wash 30mins
OR
Thiourea Full tone - presoak, bleach, rinse, wash min 5 mins, toner, fix, rinse, HCA 5mins, wash 30mins
OR
Selenium before Thiourea - presoak, selenium 1:20 3Mins , rinse 5 mins, bleach until desired effect on highlights, rinse, wash 5mins, thiourea 3 mins, rinse, fix, HCA 5mins, Wash 30mins
OR
Thiourea before Selenium - presoak,bleach until desired effect on highlights, rinse, thiourea 3 mins, fix, HCA 5mins, Wash min 10mins, selenium 1:10 3mins No shadow color shift to 10+ Mins for brown shadows
- Note Bergger CB always shifts to brown shadows with Thiourea + Selenium in my tests so far.

Also now working with Nelsons gold toner. I am currently fixing afterward but have not found any documentation saying I should. I like partial toning with Nelsons and believe it releases some silver, so do it as a precaution. Does no harm.

Doremus Scudder said:

It's easy to make a wash aid from dry chemicals. The basic recipe is:
Sodium Sulfite 20 g
Sodium bisulfite 0.2 g
Water to make 1 liter

However, the proportions are not that critical. I use a spoon recipe:
Sodium Sulfite 1 Tablespoon
Sodium bisulfite a generous pinch
Water to make 1 liter

As for hardening fixer: unless you have specific reason, you'll find both toning and washing more efficient with a non-hardening fixer. I used to mix my own F-6 back in the day, but switched to a rapid fix long ago (I use Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam without hardener now). Fixing is faster and more efficient too; no more waiting around for 10 minutes... You say you need the hardener for the belt dryer. If so Hypam or Kodak Rapid Fix plus hardener will speed things up for you. My question, however, is: do you really need a hardening fix to use the dryer?

Best,

Doremus

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I always used stinky F5 when I was a kid, about 20 years back, I started using Kodak Rapid Fix with hardener, 1 minute, film dilution, no problems with the dryer. I then adopted the no hardener Ilford rapid fix. I had prints starting to barely stick to the belt. It got really dramatic when I started using the Ilford Art 300 gsqm paper, it went right around stuck to the belt. The real stupid thing I tried was to dry the FABULOUS FOMA chloride contact paper, (Man that is beautiful stuff!!!) Holy cow. First brilliant move was I tried to ferrotype it . Took me about an hour to peel the paper, then soak the emulsion off the drum.

So I go back to my vast collection of OLD Kodak literature. Several times, I see little bits of reference to, "use a hardening fixer if prints tend to stick to dryer belts". This little bit of information no longer appears, in any modern literature, after the mid 70's, when the archival East Street Gallery folks, just down the road from me in Grinnell Iowa, scared the hell out of everyone, which started the archival washer craze, and dryer screens fury. I've managed to acquire, 3 giant plexiglass washers, 20x24, 11x14, and 8x10 .

I called Pakon last year, I had decided that I wasn't going to try to wash my drier belt again, it was wearing thin. BY what I think is a miracle, I got a hold of a super nice lady, in short, Pakon made me 3 new perfect belts for my 1966 Pakomax drier!!!

I think that I'm about done with my F6 phase, HOWEVER, the hardener does allow the prints to just fall off the belt, if I'm not watching, onto the floor

I have never had a problem with the hardener interfering with toning. I will probably go back to my develop, stop, 1 min Kodak Rapid fixer 1+4, wash briefly , into FRESH HCA 3min, Then Se toner 3 to 4 minutes (I always used 1+9, the 1+3 thing started about 10 years back because it's fast). Then I go 5 minutes into FRESH HCA, brief wash 2 minutes in tray, then 20 minutes in an archival washer. Then dry on my clean new belt.

I'm in total agreement that it makes no sense to use HCA to make up Se toner.

The gelatin on FB paper can get soft after all this, I use a mixing valve and hold everything to 20-22 F . I have the luxury of cold tap water year round.

Best Mike

In regards to water temp when toning. When I have done it in the past, I have done it outside, which tends to mean that I end up toning at ambient temperature. This weekend, when I plan on doing some toning, its going to be around 30C (86F). Now, if I get up in time on Sunday, It probably won't be that warm, but I do suspect that it might start getting there. How much influence does temp have on toning?

Cheers

Toning speeds up when temperature goes up. If it's too fast, dilute a bit more to slow the activity of the toner down. There are usually no problems with warm toner; in fact warmer toner is often recommended. However you might be pushing the limits at 30°C. Take care you don't damage the emulsion. FWIW, solutions in trays are often cooler than ambient temperature due to evaporation; take a thermometer

Doremus

I can only speak to the Kodak products (and my own experiences), I used to do a lot of Ektalure + Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner(1+4). My procedure (workflow if you must) was:

1. Developer (Ektonol when I could still get it, later Selectol), stop, first fix (Kodak Fixer, much like F5). brief rinse and holding bath
2. Second fix
3. Plunk right into KRST, KRST has thiosulfate in it so no harm there
4. Tone as needed, rinse, then into a second holding water.
5. KHCA for all prints, shuffling for five minutes.
6. Wash properly, then into a big Burke and James blotter dryer.

My tests confirmed that you either had to fix in two fixer baths, KHCA and thoroughly wash prints before toning OR just plunk the fixer laden prints into the KRST. Any intermediate partial wash before toning, with or without KHCA caused hellacious stains.

I'm curious about many washing statements here - "i wash for two hours". "No, that's overkill, one should do it". Doesn't anyone use RHT? I do a solid initial rinse, then HCA (about a half film vial per liter H20, and a good toss of salt). If it's only a few prints, I dump the HCA in the wash and let it mix in and eventually pass through (figure there's more life in it). I'll test a print border at 20-30 minutes with RHT; usually I'll still have a faint stain. It's rare I need to go a full hour to get clean tests on all the prints. I do tend to make my wash water a bit above room temp to speed the washing - no emulsion problems doing that.

Just seems a total no-brainer to me, to use something that takes 1 drop and saves untold gallons of water (and time).

I test fixing as well - fix, a good running rinse, blot off a corner and put 1 drop of straight selenium toner on the border. If I see any staining, back in the fixer. For some lith prints I may mix my fix a bit weaker - seems to retain delicate tones. I may test a print three times in the fixing stage, but I don't want to fix to the point I need to wash longer.

Anything off with my methodology?

M Carter said:

I'll test a print border at 20-30 minutes with RHT

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I do have a question for you!

Do you trim that section of the border off?

Sorry, a bit off topic. I have been testing each of my prints after an hour and have been satisfied with the same result.

darkroommike said:

I can only speak to the Kodak products (and my own experiences), I used to do a lot of Ektalure + Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner(1+4). My procedure (workflow if you must) was:

1. Developer (Ektonol when I could still get it, later Selectol), stop, first fix (Kodak Fixer, much like F5). brief rinse and holding bath
2. Second fix
3. Plunk right into KRST, KRST has thiosulfate in it so no harm there
4. Tone as needed, rinse, then into a second holding water.
5. KHCA for all prints, shuffling for five minutes.
6. Wash properly, then into a big Burke and James blotter dryer.

My tests confirmed that you either had to fix in two fixer baths, KHCA and thoroughly wash prints before toning OR just plunk the fixer laden prints into the KRST. Any intermediate partial wash before toning, with or without KHCA caused hellacious stains.

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Mike, I've done this in the past. Same drill Ektalure, F5 two bath ,I usually would rinse off the fix, maybe 30 seconds , then into KRST. No staining because there was no unfixed silver left in the paper. I've tried going directly into KRST after 1 minute in Ilford Rapid fix 1+4, I got stains. I figured (right or wrong ) that the Ilford method of going into a wash before toning gave the residual Ilford fixer enough time to convert the extra silver halides in the print??? When I followed the Ilford method I got nice prints until I had prints stick to my drier belt.
I made hundreds of prints 30 years back following the procedure you spelled out above. They still look great. I think my problem with sticking, came from trying to mix old and new . Who dries prints with a belt dryer these days other than me? ? The ammonium thiosulfate revolution, and unfounded fears of hardener ruining your toning, spelled the end for F5 and other powdered Na thiosulfate fixers.
I'm going to make a 10 foot long tray rocker, then I will sit back and spend eternity fixing, clearing, toning and washing prints

There's a lot of ways to make great prints. Best Regards (the other Iowa ) Mike

Doremus Scudder said:

Toning speeds up when temperature goes up. If it's too fast, dilute a bit more to slow the activity of the toner down. There are usually no problems with warm toner; in fact warmer toner is often recommended. However you might be pushing the limits at 30°C. Take care you don't damage the emulsion. FWIW, solutions in trays are often cooler than ambient temperature due to evaporation; take a thermometer

Doremus

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Very important to listen to Doremus here , KRST will soften emulsion when too warm. You usually find out by scratching a fiber base print

hoffy said:

I do have a question for you!

Do you trim that section of the border off?
Sorry, a bit off topic. I have been testing each of my prints after an hour and have been satisfied with the same result.

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Yes, I always leave enough border for testing - When fixer testing, if the selenium leaves a stain, that's permanent and it can really beef up in later toning. And stains the HCA test leaves can be bleached off with farmer's or Iodine; they'll redevelop if not fixed. I never have printed borderless, but if that were the case, I'd leave a quarter inch to trim off. For my stuff, I like to matte with some paper border showing, or if it's Ektalure or a holy-grail paper, I like to mount to see the whole sheet - sort of treat the print like an "artifact" I guess. So I generally know when setting up the easel where I'll leave testing space.

I sorta have a bugaboo about washing too long - we don't have any save-water stuff generally in our city, you can water your lawn 24-7 if you want, but still it seems like wasting time and water (not concerned I'll over-wash or anything). If a print is clean in 40 minutes, I feel all "well, that was worth testing"! Of course I may get busy with something else and my phone timer says "go test, print's probably clean" and it may be 15 minutes before I get back in there - nobody's perfect I guess, but at least I know the prints are clean!

M Carter said:

Yes, I always leave enough border for testing - When fixer testing, if the selenium leaves a stain, that's permanent and it can really beef up in later toning.

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Thanks for responding. I have been testing right in the corner of the widest border, that is intended to be at least covered when mounted. While I could trim it off, I like enough material to mount with. I think I will re-consider this, though, because I wouldn't want to have to explain to someone who buys a print why there is a purple spot!

As for toning, I toned two work prints last night and two finals today. Thankfully, no staining!

hoffy said:

Thankfully, no staining!

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Testing for fixing and washing's been such peace of mind for me - suddenly no "what the hell?!?!?" when I'm toning a print!!!

I know that this thread has been dormant for nearly a year, but if anyone is concerned with toner being impeded by a hardening fixer, one can use a bath of hardener alone prior to the final wash.
The little bottles of Part B hardener that come with Kodak Rapid fixer (in some sizes) work perfectly, diluted 1+13.