The placement of Selenium in the processing chain

Hello:

I've been doing this for 23 years, but I am embarrassingly ignorant as to where selenium toning can safely be put in the printing chain.

For ages, my only darkroom access has been in the form of rental darkrooms, where toning is not allowed. If I wanted to tone a print, I'd fully, archivally wash and dry the prints at the darkroom. Later, at home, I'd soak, then tone and archivally wash the print all over again. I seem to have a distinct memory of being told that selenium toner will react adversely with residual fixer (staining, or eventual stains) and a thorough wash between the steps is necessary. I now question this memory.

I am now building a simple 8x10 contact-printing darkroom at home and can tone at any stage I want. As part of this development, I've lately read darkroom procedures where people simply include the selenium as part of the processing chain, before the big wash.

Is this right; can a print safely go right from the fixer tray to the toning tray? Or from fixing tray to water holding tray to toning tray??

I'd like to merge the ilford fixing procedure (one fixing tray, strong and brief) with selenium toning without necessitating two long washes if at all possible. In addition to the time and inconvenience, we in California are still in a drought. Of course archival stability is still paramount.

Thanks in advance,
Jarin

I get stains immediately when I take Ilford Galerie from Kodak Rapid Fix through a "too brief" rinse and then to KRST 1:20. I've found nothing that can remove the stain. Now I wash fully before toning. I think it helps the toner stay uncontaminated longer too.

It's not my usual procedure, but one time I did fully wash, dry and then resoak and tone a batch of prints. The odd thing that happened was a texture from the drying screen (when dried face down) appeared in the toned print I think because the emulsion was a bit harder where it touched the screen so it took toner unevenly. Now I dry prints face up.

Now AnselmAdams used a plain hypo bath between rapid fixer and KRST, It's an issue particular to Ammonium Thiosulphate fixers, going into a Sodium Thiosulphate bath he claimed helps. AS KRST contains Ammonium Thiosulphate I'm sceptical.

I fix - two bath, hold in two trays changinging the water before a Wash then KRST then a short wash then Sulphite HCA followed by an hours wash. THe first holding tary are the prints just fixed they only move to the second after all few rinses. Sometimes I give a god wash after fixing with an HCA step then dry the prints, soaking then toning the next day is so, I prefer to use KRST in daylight to see the colour shift, particularly as sometimes I deliberately split tone. This is a technique used a lot by Thomas Joshua Cooper and Olivia Parker (Weighing The Planets - pne of my favourite books - superb work).

Ian

Ah, I thought it may be too good to be true. It would have been great to see a toned print before moving on to the next negative. Then I could have adjusted the printing to fit selenium's intensifying effect on the paper.

What would you characterize as a "full washing" before the toner?

J

I'd use a test strip, wash 10 mins, KRST rinse 2 mins and dry with a hair dyer AA used a microwave oven !!!!!!!!!!!

Ian

With fibre papers, after fix, I rinsed, then toned in selenium, rinse, HCA, wash. But sometimes I washed the print, dried, and toned the next day. I never stuck the print directly after fixing. I always got horrid staining, especially with Oriental VC.

Don't be discouraged. The fixer choice can be a key factor in staining. I never use anything else but Kodak rapid fixer. There are some fixers you can go straight from into Selenium.

Thanks everyone-

So, how about this ?:

-Developer (Amidol)
-Stop
-3 min TF4 fix (a rapid fix, w/o hardener)
-10 min running water rinse (large tray with holes at one end)
-Selenium
-Wash aid
-1 hour wash

?

Your current system (fix, wash, dry, resoak, tone, wash, dry) will work fine and has the advantage that you can concentrate on toning in the toning stage. Ian's procedure is very safe, but may be overkill for an incidental printer. You might instead try: fix; rinse pretty well; HCA, as recommended on the box; very thorough rinse or reasonable wash; tone; thorough wash; dry.

I transfer prints directly from the second fix to the toner all the time. No problems in 30+ years except once. So, going directly from fix to toner is certainly possible.

However, to avoid stains you need to be aware of the two causes of staining. The first is inadequate fixing; a print needs to be fully fixed before toning or staining can occur. The best way to ensure this is with two-bath fixing. The second cause of staining is moving the print from an acid environment (think acid fixer, e.g., Kodak Rapid Fix and many others) directly to the fixer without adequate washing in between.

Conclusion: If you want to transfer prints directly from the fix to the toner, you need a non-acid fix and you need to really be sure you are not underfixing.

Non-acid fixes include any of the alkaline fixers (TF-4, etc.) and the neutral pH TF-5. You can also use plain hypo as a second fix before toning, since it is close to neutral (and why Adams used it before toning). Other near-neutral pH fixers include many rapid fixers diluted to "print strength" such as Ilford Hypam or Rapid Fixer. Note that these may be too acidic in the stronger "film-strength" dilution.

There is an inherent problem with the Ilford "archival" sequence and transferring directly to the toner. The fixer is used one bath, which makes it easy to underfix. Fixer capacity for optimum permanence with this method is only 10 8x10s per liter. Plus, as I mentioned, the stronger 1+4 fixer dilution may be too acidic for direct transfer. I use Ilford Rapid Fixer almost exclusively for printing, but in the 1+9 dilution and two-bath. This increases the capacity to 36+ 8x10s per liter of first fix and shows no staining problems when transferring the prints directly to the toner.

My personal workflow is to print and give a 1.5-2 minute first fix, then wash and dry the prints. I then evaluate, cull and reserve the "keepers" for a toning session. Toning sessions are usually in increments of 36 prints for me, since that's three washer loads and about a day's work in the darkroom. The toning session consists of a water soak, fix two (Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam without hardener mixed 1+9), toner (no intermediate rinse), wash aid (also no intermediate rinse) and then a minimum one-hour wash. Note that I don't rinse before the wash aid; I mix my own from sodium sulfite and bisulfite. The capacity is reduced without a rinse, but the time saved is worth the reduced capacity.

If you want to see your toned print before going to the next print, then you'll have to work it in to your workflow somehow. An alkaline or neutral fixer like TF-5 could be used one-bath and you should be able to transfer directly to the toner without an intermediate rinse. However, your fixer capacity will be reduced by quite a bit. Keep in mind that print dry-down can make a greater change in apparent density than toning, so it may not help much to see the toning effect unless you dry down the print as well. I work the other way; I dry my prints down and evaluate them before making the next print (this is the most time-consuming part of my workflow, but I believe in wasting time instead of materials). I keep in mind that toning will darken shadows and mid-tones a bit, so evaluate at this point under a bit dimmer light than I like to display in. The toning then brings the print to the right density for gallery lighting. That said, for tricky prints, I'll make several just a tiny bit different and see how they tone. Ones that tone too dark are then discarded.

One more thing to keep in mind: If you're going to use a wash aid (HCA or the like), it should be done after toning and immediately before the wash to facilitate washing. Some advocate a wash aid before toning, which is not bad, as it ensures that the print is not to acid to be toned. However, this step doesn't help with washing since toner contains ammonium thiosulfate, etc., which needs to be washed out after toning.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

If I have read the OP's statement correctly he ensures the print is archivally washed at his rental darkroom. If this is the case then isn't he OK to soak the print at home then selenium tone there without worries?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Jarin Blaschke said:

Hello:

I've been doing this for 23 years, but I am embarrassingly ignorant as to where selenium toning can safely be put in the printing chain.

For ages, my only darkroom access has been in the form of rental darkrooms, where toning is not allowed. If I wanted to tone a print, I'd fully, archivally wash and dry the prints at the darkroom. Later, at home, I'd soak, then tone and archivally wash the print all over again. I seem to have a distinct memory of being told that selenium toner will react adversely with residual fixer (staining, or eventual stains) and a thorough wash between the steps is necessary. I now question this memory.

I am now building a simple 8x10 contact-printing darkroom at home and can tone at any stage I want. As part of this development, I've lately read darkroom procedures where people simply include the selenium as part of the processing chain, before the big wash.

Is this right; can a print safely go right from the fixer tray to the toning tray? Or from fixing tray to water holding tray to toning tray??

I'd like to merge the ilford fixing procedure (one fixing tray, strong and brief) with selenium toning without necessitating two long washes if at all possible. In addition to the time and inconvenience, we in California are still in a drought. Of course archival stability is still paramount.

Thanks in advance,
Jarin

Click to expand...

I use a full wash before and after selenium toning

I'm going to dig into this thread again because I want to ensure that I am doing it right.

When I have used it in the past, I have toned at another time, which includes a pre soak, tone and a full wash afterwards (with RC, this was a 6 minute steady flow running water wash. With FB it was a 5 minute slow wash, wash aid and anything between 1 and 2 hour slow wash). Am I correct with this procedure? I am also assuming that during the original print development session that I should be washing in full (using the same wash procedures above, which is what I have done.)?

Cheers

To add to Doremus Scudder's notes about the need for proper fixing: typical fixing process consists of two actions: complexation of silver ions and removal of these soluble complexes from the gelatin layer. In typical B&W processing we need the paper in the fixer only for the first action, while the "removal from gelatin layer" can happen in the washing step. Moving the "removal" action into the washing stage reduces time the paper spends in fixer, which is generally considered a good thing (acidic fixers bleach silver, thiosulfate binds to baryta papers, ...).

If you selenium tone, you need to make sure that both actions are complete: if there are any silver complexes left in your paper, these will react with selenium toner to form a dark precipitate (typically referred to as staining). You will have to experiment yourself, how long your paper must stay in fixer to be ready for selenium toning, since most treatments of fixation assume that a wash step follows fixation.

Hi Rudi,

Just to clarify my workflow: I use Ilford Rapid Fixer at the 1+9 dilution and fix 1.5-2 minutes per bath (3-4 minutes total). My working maximum capacity is no more than 36 8x10 prints per liter of bath 1. After bath 2, I transfer the print directly to the toner without an intermediate wash. Whatever residual silver is in bath 2 is carried over to the toner. My prints do not stain; they get toned and then get transferred to a hypo-clearing bath (sodium sulfite+metabisulfite) for 10 minutes with agitation and then go into the washer for a 60 min.+ wash. So, I'm certainly not making sure that the "removal" action is complete before toning. Nevertheless, as long as the prints are adequately fixed (i.e., fixer capacity not exceeded) and the fixer itself is not too acidic (Rapid Fixer at 1+9 is fairly close to neutral pH), I experience no staining. My (reused and replenished) toner does throw a black precipitate, which I filter out before and after use. My prints get regularly tested for residual silver and hypo and pass the HT-2 and ST-1 tests (plus selenium toning with no staining).

I adopted the practice of transferring prints directly from fixing bath two to the toner after reading Ansel Adams' "The Print" many years ago. He used plain hypo before the toning bath. I've been using Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9 with success as well. It seems that this practice is effective and has historical precedent. My prints, straight out of the toner, would certainly not pass the residual hypo test, since they are unwashed. I have no idea just how much residual silver is left in them, and in what form, but it does not seem to be anything that negatively affects the toning in selenium.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus,

thiosulfate in your gelatin is certainly no problem, selenium toner does contain a hefty dose of thiosulfate by itself after all. Your procedure does seem to get all the silver halide and all the silver thiosulfate complexes out of the emulsion.

BTW in my experience paper fixation is a lot faster than commonly thought. I tried the following: exposed a test clip under the enlarger, threw a few droplets of fixer (some cheap, neutral Sodium Thiosulfate plus Ammonium Chloride mix, so nothing particularly fast) onto the surface, wash it off immediately, develop. There is absolutely no developed silver wherever these droplets were, not even if you turn on the room light while the clip is still in the developer. Fixation must be complete within a few seconds after the paper hits the fixer IMHO.

Rudeofus said:

.... I tried the following: exposed a test clip under the enlarger, threw a few droplets of fixer (some cheap, neutral Sodium Thiosulfate plus Ammonium Chloride mix, so nothing particularly fast) onto the surface, wash it off immediately, develop. There is absolutely no developed silver wherever these droplets were, not even if you turn on the room light while the clip is still in the developer. Fixation must be complete within a few seconds after the paper hits the fixer IMHO.

Click to expand...

Or, the silver halides in the emulsion have simply been rendered insensitive to light, i.e., there are some argentothiosulfates in the emulsion, but they can no longer be exposed and developed. Maybe that's all that's needed to prevent staining in selenium toner as well; all the silver halide needs to be converted to some stage of the fixing chain, i.e., into some relatively simple argentothiosulfate and not completely washed out to prevent staining. I can't imagine that all the by-products of fixation are left behind in fixing bath 2 when transferring a print directly to the toner. However, maybe this is what you mean by "fixation must be complete," i.e., all silver halides have been converted into soluble compounds. These, however, are almost certainly still present during toning with my workflow and seem to have no affect.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder said:

Or, the silver halides in the emulsion have simply been rendered insensitive to light, i.e., there are some argentothiosulfates in the emulsion, but they can no longer be exposed and developed. Maybe that's all that's needed to prevent staining in selenium toner as well; all the silver halide needs to be converted to some stage of the fixing chain, i.e., into some relatively simple argentothiosulfate and not completely washed out to prevent staining. I can't imagine that all the by-products of fixation are left behind in fixing bath 2 when transferring a print directly to the toner. However, maybe this is what you mean by "fixation must be complete," i.e., all silver halides have been converted into soluble compounds. These, however, are almost certainly still present during toning with my workflow and seem to have no affect.

Click to expand...

Selenium is right below Sulfur, and acts very similar together with Silver. I don't think you can find a fixer which would bind the Silver ions stronger than selenium toner, that's why it works so well for indicating retained silver halide. The reason why your process works is dilution: your emulsion is a few µm thick, whereas your fixer bath is similar in size to paper size and likely more than 10mm filled with fixer - that's a >1:1000 volume ratio! Even with single stage fixing you would dilute silver thiosulfate complex concentration more than thousandfold, with two stage fixing dilution is even more.

Thank you Doremus for this thorough explanation!

Ian Grant said:

...This is a technique used a lot by Thomas Joshua Cooper and Olivia Parker (Weighing The Planets - pne of my favourite books - superb work).Ian

Click to expand...

Thomas Joshua Cooper taught me how to selenium tone....about 1980, maybe 1981. Wash and dried print. Resoak, then KRST mixed with HCA at about 110F. Portriga Rapid for 30 seconds in the toner -- Iflord Gallery a little longer. The Portriga Rapid would lose the green tint and would stop before going red/purple (a nice reddish-brown instead.) The Gallerie would go from slightly warm to a neutral tone. Ah...the good old days -- glad I don't mess with the stuff now.

Vaughn said:

Thomas Joshua Cooper taught me how to selenium tone....about 1980, maybe 1981. Wash and dried print. Resoak, then KRST mixed with HCA at about 110F. Portriga Rapid for 30 seconds in the toner -- Iflord Gallery a little longer. The Portriga Rapid would lose the green tint and would stop before going red/purple (a nice reddish-brown instead.) The Gallerie would go from slightly warm to a neutral tone. Ah...the good old days -- glad I don't mess with the stuff now.

Click to expand...

Of course Thomas Joshua Cooper went that step further and deliberately split toned using the red-brown to good effect. Hard to describe to those that haven't seen his original prints.

The papers he and Olivia Parker just aren't available today used.

Ian

Jarin Blaschke said:

Hello:

I've been doing this for 23 years, but I am embarrassingly ignorant as to where selenium toning can safely be put in the printing chain.

For ages, my only darkroom access has been in the form of rental darkrooms, where toning is not allowed. If I wanted to tone a print, I'd fully, archivally wash and dry the prints at the darkroom. Later, at home, I'd soak, then tone and archivally wash the print all over again. I seem to have a distinct memory of being told that selenium toner will react adversely with residual fixer (staining, or eventual stains) and a thorough wash between the steps is necessary. I now question this memory.

I am now building a simple 8x10 contact-printing darkroom at home and can tone at any stage I want. As part of this development, I've lately read darkroom procedures where people simply include the selenium as part of the processing chain, before the big wash.

Is this right; can a print safely go right from the fixer tray to the toning tray? Or from fixing tray to water holding tray to toning tray??

I'd like to merge the ilford fixing procedure (one fixing tray, strong and brief) with selenium toning without necessitating two long washes if at all possible. In addition to the time and inconvenience, we in California are still in a drought. Of course archival stability is still paramount.

Thanks in advance,
Jarin

Click to expand...

here is what I do:

Has anyone experience with gold toner regarding rinse before toning?

hoffy said:

I'm going to dig into this thread again because I want to ensure that I am doing it right.

When I have used it in the past, I have toned at another time, which includes a pre soak, tone and a full wash afterwards (with RC, this was a 6 minute steady flow running water wash. With FB it was a 5 minute slow wash, wash aid and anything between 1 and 2 hour slow wash). Am I correct with this procedure? I am also assuming that during the original print development session that I should be washing in full (using the same wash procedures above, which is what I have done.)?

Cheers

Click to expand...

I hate having to quote my own posts..... but I never really had a response to my question from last year.

Does anyone have an opinion on this? Just trying to fine tune my process flow!

Cheers

hoffy said:

I hate having to quote my own posts..... but I never really had a response to my question from last year.

Does anyone have an opinion on this? Just trying to fine tune my process flow!

Cheers

Click to expand...

I always tone during initial processing. My procedure is old school. I use 2 bath Kodak F6 formula fixer, then brief (1 minute) dunk in Kodak HCA, then straight into KRSe Toner 1+3 made up with HCA. If you get stains on the print it is from inadequate fixing or from carry over of silver laden fixer.

NOW for your question. When starting with a thoroughly fixed and washed DRY print. I have used a brief re-wet in not to warm, 68 to 75 F water. Then tone in 1+3 KRSe toner mixed in HCA. If you are using Fiber base, I would give brief dunk (1-2 minutes) in fresh HCA then wash for at least 20 minutes in running water, or as I do fill and dump the tray every few minutes with constant agitation. If you are doing a batch, 20 minutes in an archival washer.

RC I would wet, tone (it goes really fast with 1+3, 90 seconds to 2 minutes) rinse for 30 seconds in HCA then wash for 2 minutes in running water.

I wouldn't wash for hours, it's important to use water that, IMHO is at least 65F. In the old days Kodak would tell us that HCA allowed the use of very cold water. This is correct, however warmer water will get everything out. Not too warm or you will soften gelatin. RC paper should not be wet other than necessary, 2 minute wash under a gentle wash is plenty.

I tone every print, I can't resist the effect. 99% of the time it's Se.

Hope this helps, Best Mike