The old Motor Sport car "Leaning Forward" effect

hoffy · Jun 19, 2009

Howdy,

Firstly, I am not trying to get this kind of effect, I am just curious on what may cause it.

I have seen many motor sport pictures from the first few decades of the 20th century, where the cars appear to be leaning forward and have often wondered what causes that effect:

http://crashingthegoalie.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/2335460135_558a93fa1a_d.jpg

Now, my guess is its due to the slow nature of the actual shutter movement. Am I correct? Does anyone know what causes this?

Thanks

Soeren · Jun 19, 2009

Focalplaneshutter with "slow" movement. In other words Yes you are right
Best regards

Soeren · Jun 19, 2009

And if the photographer panned, the buildings will lean backwards too, wierd looking

Andy K · Jun 19, 2009

I think it was caused by vertically moving shutters and (compared to today) relatively slow shutter speeds.

2F/2F · Jun 19, 2009

The focal plane shutters in press cameras traveled vertically...in fact, they still do! At slow enough curtain speeds (correction by Soeren), the car in motion was in a different spot when the shutter slit ended its travel as when it began it.

removed account4 · Jun 19, 2009

just to add onto 2f's post
a lot of the focal plane shutters were slots in a fabric
that traveled from top to bottom on the film plane.

this can be done easily today with a press camera ( like a speed graphic )
or a graflex slr type camera ..

john

Soeren · Jun 19, 2009

2F/2F said:
The focal plane shutters in press cameras traveled vertically...in fact, they still do! At slow enough shutter speeds, the car in motion was in a different spot when the shutter slit ended its travel as when it began it.

Hmm Im sure you mean the speed of the curtains (which is constant) cause the "shutter speed" is made from the width of the gap between the curtains. So you can have "high shutterspeeds" using slow curtains.
Best regards

hoffy · Jun 19, 2009

Soeren said:
Hmm Im sure you mean the speed of the curtains (which is constant) cause the "shutter speed" is made from the width of the gap between the curtains. So you can have "high shutterspeeds" using slow curtains.
Best regards

I agree with that. If you look at the picture of the Marmon Wasp, you can see that there is a clear stopping of the action, but the car is still leaning. This suggests to me that the shutter speed was relatively quick, but the actual shutter movement was slow.

Thanks guys for your responses!

bobwysiwyg · Jun 19, 2009

So, one could achieve this affect even with a camera having horizontal shutter curtains by rotating the camera from landscape to portrait orientation?

2F/2F · Jun 19, 2009

Soeren said:
Hmm Im sure you mean the speed of the curtains (which is constant) cause the "shutter speed" is made from the width of the gap between the curtains. So you can have "high shutterspeeds" using slow curtains.
Best regards

Yes, you are right. Sloppy and incorrect use of terminology on my part. I should have added that the curtain moving slowly combined with the fast shutter from a tiny slit is what causes it. I assumed it was common knowledge that the width of the slit on a shutter is used to control the quote-unquote "speed" (the exposure time), even though it is not technically changing the speed of the curtain by definition of the word speed.

I also hinted at exactly what John said: This can, of course, still be done today. Any Speed Graphic or similarly featured camera will do it.

2F/2F · Jun 19, 2009

bobwysiwyg said:
So, one could achieve this affect even with a camera having horizontal shutter curtains by rotating the camera from landscape to portrait orientation?

Yes. However, as the one fellow mentioned, the curtain moving slowly is a necessity.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 19, 2009

On old Graflex shutters, there's a tension setting that controls the speed of the curtain travel and a slit width setting that controls the amount of light let in by the shutter. Some of these shutters had a set of fixed slits on a long single curtain, and some had a single adjustable slit with two curtains, which was a bit less reliable, being more complex.

On my 5x7 Press Graflex (a camera much like the one Lartigue used in his famous racing photo), it takes up to about 1/5 sec for the shutter to travel the height of the film gate, depending on the tension setting, but there are four slit widths, so at the highest tension with the smallest slit, I can have a shutter speed of 1/1500 sec.

polyglot · Jun 19, 2009

this effect is still visible in current-model high-performance SLRs: you just need faster-moving subjects like propellers to make it visible.

edit: "Hi, Hoffy!"... I ain't stalking you, only noticed whose thread it was after I posted

Akalai · Jun 19, 2009

There is a great animated explanation of the same effect in Jacques Henri Lartigue's image "Grand Prix de Circuit de la Seine", here;

Jacques Henri Lartigue and his camera
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=31903

Sirius Glass · Jun 19, 2009

Really! And all this time I thought that the old cars leaned forward, just as the old cars leaned into the turn!

I always knew that I could never get my car to do that.

Steve

Schlapp · Jun 19, 2009

I use this effect and its really easy.
I use my KOWA6 MM which has a 't' setting on the shutter. I have a piece of cardboard cut with a slot in it about 1-2mm wide and edged with fogged sheet film.
Place the cardboard so that it covers the lens. Open the shutter and then draw the slot across the lens, then shut the shutter. There. Sorted. see here and here .

mike c · Jun 19, 2009

Ha Ha!!! My old car still does leans in the turns, and when going fast (if I can peddle fast enough) it actually leans back, if it wasn't for the gum and duct tape well.... that's another story.

Mike

removed account4 · Jun 19, 2009

Schlapp said:
I use this effect and its really easy.
I use my KOWA6 MM which has a 't' setting on the shutter. I have a piece of cardboard cut with a slot in it about 1-2mm wide and edged with fogged sheet film.
Place the cardboard so that it covers the lens. Open the shutter and then draw the slot across the lens, then shut the shutter. There. Sorted. see here and here .

very nice!
the only times i do it is
with my graflex &C cameras
it is good to know there are other techniques

Sirius Glass · Jun 19, 2009

Taking photographs showing a vehicle leaning forward is part of my fascination with getting a Speed Graphic or equivalent.

Steve

PeteZ8 · Jun 19, 2009

Interesting. I've often wondered about this effect being possible but never really paid attention to real world examples.

Jeff Kubach · Jun 19, 2009

I understand what is going on, but still I love those pictures!

Jeff

hoffy · Jun 19, 2009

polyglot said:
this effect is still visible in current-model high-performance SLRs: you just need faster-moving subjects like propellers to make it visible.

edit: "Hi, Hoffy!"... I ain't stalking you, only noticed whose thread it was after I posted

Howdy Poly. Nice to see you over here.

To be honest, I have never really noticed it with the props. I suppose when ever I have taken aviation pics, I have tried to blur the props, so you can't tell. I also suppose that you would just about need to be face on to get the same effect in that scenario (& of course, we are talking high performance current FILM slr's )

polyglot · Jun 19, 2009

of course we are Have you tried the 28-75/2.8 on your 7000 yet? Is it working as well as expected?

hoffy · Jun 20, 2009

No, I haven't!! When ever I have had a chance, its been horrible weather!

brian steinberger · Jun 20, 2009

This is very interesting stuff. I wouldn't mind trying the effect out for myself. Which model Graflex's have the slow moving slit-type shutter? Did they only make them certain years?

The old Motor Sport car "Leaning Forward" effect

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