The new Fuji Folder - a few thoughts

glbeas · Feb 16, 2008

Larry.Manuel said:
Here is an invitation to others, to explain how a folding mechanism could accommodate different focal length lenses, presumably having differing back focal lengths. Thanks.

There have been quite a few RF camera systems with add on front elements for short tele and moderate wide angle conversion. Not a perfect solution but still quite handy and popular at the time.

keithwms · Feb 16, 2008

The folder design doesn't lend itself very well to interchangeable lenses because you'd have to incorporate a lot more travel along the lens axis. There are some fancy ways to focus a folder that might obviate that, such as found in the older mamiya 6, but I don't imagine Fuji will rekindle that complicated design. It's much more likely that we'd see two or three fixed-folder designs brought out simultaneously, with RFs optimized separately.

I personally think the very best pseudo-folder design is the newer mamiya 6, which actually doesn't look like a folder but it does fold in - the lens mount recesses so that the lens almost touches the film plane, and there is a safety screen. And if you look inside there is a bellows. Of course, that design does allow interchangeable lenses and there is a very rigid mount. It's not quite as pocketable as a true folder but very close. Certainly jacket-pocketable.

HerrBremerhaven · Feb 16, 2008

Larry.Manuel said:
Here is an invitation to others, to explain how a folding mechanism could accommodate different focal length lenses, presumably having differing back focal lengths. Thanks.

Do a search for Kodak Retina, and you will find a few examples. Most used the same shutter, then changed the lens elements to accomodate a different focal length. So it could be done, though with a little complexity involved. I think it might also compromise the lens design a bit away from optimum.

If you want an interchangeable lens 6x7 rangefinder, Mamiya already make one called the 7 II, which you can still buy new. You might also find good deals on a used 7 or 7 II, which could compete price wise with this Fuji. Due to that, I don't think it would be wise for Fuji to compete with Mamiya.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography

Mick Fagan · Feb 17, 2008

Scott, interesting point about the Beseler enlargers.

We do have them here, especially their 4x5 enlargers and there is a reasonable amount of the smaller 23 in various designations.

Working on the basis that the USA will be the biggest single market for this camera, you may be correct that 6x9 could be a viable proposition. However, outside that market it's a slightly different story, I think!

Mick.

Nick Zentena · Feb 17, 2008

Durst etc all made 6x9 enlargers. Plus 4x5 are so common.

Plus Fuji has made 6x9 cameras in the past so nothing new really.

Karl K · Feb 17, 2008

6X7 vs. 6X9

Nick Zentena said:
Durst etc all made 6x9 enlargers. Plus 4x5 are so common.

Plus Fuji has made 6x9 cameras in the past so nothing new really.

Yes, this is true, but 6x7 has been the choice of wedding pros for many years because of its perfect 8x10 proportions. My guess is that Fuji's camera will be a 6x7, not 6x8 or 6x9. They have already made 6x7 folders, so the lens and bellows configurations are tried and true. Plus, the lens won't have to cover a larger circle. Also 10 exposures per roll vs. only 8.

Also, Fuji is mindful about automatic processing machines: there are many automatic printers, which can only print negs up to 6x7, that are still being used by labs all over the world. Agfa made a very popular one that my local custom lab still uses. He prints beautifully from 6x7, but can't accommodate a 6x9 neg in the negative stage. He is forced to crop the image to 6x7.

Yes, I would love to see Fuji debut the camera in a 6x9 format, or better yet, in a switchable 6x7/6x9 format, with bright frame line indications in the viewfinder. But all that costs lots of money, and Fuji knows that this product will have a limited market, so they will opt for a standard 6x7 format, IMO.

Fuji, to my knowledge, has not made any hand-held exposure meters, so I don't see any reason for them to offer one with this camera, especially since the camera has one built in. Manufacturing a specific electronic flash, also does not seem to make any marketing sense to me, unless the camera has TTL flash capabilities. For both of the above options, economies of scale will prevail.

I would be satisfied with a soft case, a comfortable strap and a price of under $900.

Ok, make that under $1000, including 5 rolls of the new Provia 400X.

Zvonimir Ervacic · Feb 17, 2008

Larry.Manuel said:
Here is an invitation to others, to explain how a folding mechanism could accommodate different focal length lenses, presumably having differing back focal lengths. Thanks.

I guess you can think of it as a MF size LF camera w/out tilt/shift.

Pozdrav,
Zvonimir

Sal Santamaura · Feb 19, 2008

david b said:
...you cannot fit ten 6x7 negatives on a sheet of 8x10 paper to make contact prints. You can only fit 9, meaning there is always an orphan...

I long ago adopted the practice of making only 9 6x7 negatives per 120 roll. When loading, I place the paper arrow approximately 30mm shy of the camera's index mark. Then, after closing the back, I advance to frame 1 and trip the shutter with the cap on, i.e. create a blank "frame" (some of which might actually be on the paper). This accomplishes several things:

Leaves additional "leader" and "trailer" at the roll's ends to minimize any chance of handling damage when loading/unloading reels. This is particularly valuable with thick-base films like T-MAX which are actually shorter than other types. Agfapan APX 25 was even thicker -- and shorter.
Enables storage of processed negatives in 3 strips of 3 frames using standard pages.
Permits contacting an entire roll on a single sheet of 8x10 paper.

I've done this with all manner of 6x7 cameras, including P67, Fuji GW670III and Mamiya 7.

Konical · Feb 19, 2008

Good Evening,

Like Sal, I have sometimes sacrificed the tenth frame on a 6 x 7 120 roll, primarily due to the awkwardness of contacting. I have found, however, that, by cheating a bit, I can put most of a tenth frame onto a contact sheet measuring 8 1/2 by 11. Naturally, I shoot all ten frames when using transparency film, since no contacting is necessary.

(Sorry if this shows twice. I just sent this post, thought it "took" but then couldn't find it. It's not the first time I've experienced that problem; does anyone else sometimes have the same difficulty?)

Konical

Uncle Goose · Feb 20, 2008

If it's below 500$ I might consider buying one. I think 500$ is realistic because it's a folder, not a SLR. I certainly hope if they release it they don't overdo the price, I think there is quite a bunch of people who are interested in a new folder (since is hasn't been made for decades) but it has to be affordable.

Bandicoot · Feb 20, 2008

Tom Stanworth said:
I agree on 6x8 as the format though. It amazes me that this one has not hit it big as it is the same almost as 645 which I find very pleasant. Less boxy than 6x7 and less elongated that 6x9/35mm. Perfectly balanced.

I'm another big fan of 6x8, I think it has lovely proportions. 6x7 is just a little boxy (and there's that annoying 10 shots not fitting the file page thing), and 6x9 is not bad for landscape but being the same proportions as 35mm seems like a waste, somehow...

But for all that, I'd be surprised if Fuji goes for it: little known format, fewer shots per roll (nice though having nine shots is), film flatness, somewhat fewer people having enlargers that fit it, more lens coverage needed, more difficult to keep the lens sufficiently parallel, etc., etc.

I'm expecting it to be a 6x7 - and as such it'll still be a very nice camera.

Peter

Rob Skeoch · Mar 30, 2008

Have there been any up-dates on this camera... is it going to happen.
I did call Fuji Canada and they didn't think it would be an item they offered.
-Rob

Matus Kalisky · Apr 2, 2008

I guess it we have to wait a bit more, but we can use the time wisely and keep chatting about it

Be it whatever from 6x6 up to 6x12 - I just hope it comes true within a year.

Silverhead · Apr 2, 2008

Considering that what was displayed was only a prototype or a mock-up, the lack of word from Fuji in this short amount of time isn't that surprising to me. If a manufacturer is going to seriously consider going into production of a camera--particularly one like this, whose design is so far removed from the "conventional" 35mm and medium format designs that are on the market today--they need to test and troubleshoot their design like nobody's business, in order to ensure that the thing works correctly and doesn't malfunction or break down in the consumer's hands. Otherwise they could end up with major egg on their faces...witness what happened to Canon's image when the Mark III's (yes, digi, I know) autofocus problems came to light. And of course there's the financial consideration as well...after all, sinking bucketloads of dollars into R&D for a camera that ends up being a lemon (or a paperweight) isn't exactly great for business, I think you'll agree.

Be patient, word will come down eventually, one way or the other. Of course, I'm hoping that the word ends up being positive. We'll see.

keithwms · Apr 2, 2008

I hope that Cosina is looking at this. I'd think they'd actually be more inclined to produce it than Fuji. Maybe we should write some letters to Cosina...

Nick Zentena · Apr 2, 2008

Actually I think Fuji would make it. The problem is they'd only sell it in Japan. Worse it might be a very limited production run.

Haven't they made a bunch of wide angle 35mm cameras the last few years? Only sold in Japan.

DBP · Apr 2, 2008

I haven't seen Cosina make anything in a while that didn't leverage the basic mechanics of one of their 35mm SLRs. Given that they don't have any recent experience with medium format, folders, or leaf shutters, that makes the only relevant in house expertise the lens and rangefinder. So this would seem to be a big stretch for Cosina. Fuji, on the other hand, has recent experience with all the above.

RobC · Apr 2, 2008

I don't understand why people want interchangeable lenses on this camera. It's supposed to be a folder which means compact to carry. If you have other lenses then you have a kit bag and if you have a kit bag a mamiya is going to be a better option than a folder. And if you want 6x9 then its not going to be compact so once again it doesn't make sense. Or to put it more obviously, this camera is obviously not what a lot of people want. So why are you making a storm in a tea cup about it if its not what you want? Or is it just a case of I WANT?

There's plenty of second hand durst 6x9 enlargers. The kaiser VCP 9005 currently still available is a 6x9 enlarger.

eclarke · Apr 2, 2008

Vaporware...Evan Clarke

AMBYSTOMA · Apr 2, 2008

fuji folding camera

The Mamiya 711 has interchangeable lenses of superb quality, has a rigid body and is a 6x7.... what would be the purpose of a Fuji fixed lens 6x7, with a non-rigid foldup design? I would stick with the Mamiya

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Apr 2, 2008

AMBYSTOMA said:
The Mamiya 711 has interchangeable lenses of superb quality, has a rigid body and is a 6x7.... what would be the purpose of a Fuji fixed lens 6x7, with a non-rigid foldup design?

Cheap. Otherwise you're right, it's worthless.

David A. Goldfarb · Apr 2, 2008

The Mamiya 7II is a great camera, but a folder would be lighter, more compact, and could fit easily in a coat pocket. That's the attraction of a folder. My Perkeo II goes anywhere and shoots medium format.

Matus Kalisky · Apr 3, 2008

Mamiya 7 II is according to many happy users (I never had one in hand) a great camera, but it will remain for many of us just a dream. The weight with 80mm lens is 1.2 kg, it is not exactely compact and costs $2000+. So a compact 6x7 folder with a weight about 800g and price bellow $1000 would make sense. And if a Rolleiflex is a chick magnet than a new shiny folder should do event better jobe here

Stephanie Brim · Apr 3, 2008

AMBYSTOMA said:
The Mamiya 711 has interchangeable lenses of superb quality, has a rigid body and is a 6x7.... what would be the purpose of a Fuji fixed lens 6x7, with a non-rigid foldup design? I would stick with the Mamiya

Last I knew, you couldn't stick a Mamiya 7II in your jacket pocket.

ghost1001 · Apr 3, 2008

pictures

here are some pics of the proto...6x7 80mm 1:3.5.

I think it is safe to say that it WILL be 6x7 with an 80mm 3.5 lens....they would not be showing this unless they are in the position to ramp up production.

My guess is under $1000 USD....this could be HUGE in Asia.

I could see it at $750USD, judging from the pictures below.

There is a reason they would even attempt such a camera...there must be demand. They will make no money selling to collectors and people that can afford $1500 fixed lens cameras.

Voigtlander has proven the low price point business model for entry into a "dead" market.

Kevin

The new Fuji Folder - a few thoughts

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