The less technology, the better the photograph?

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if using a manual more hands on camera helps you
be more in the place you want to be, more power to you !

it doesn't matter to me what medium i use. i find shooting the D-thing is
not easy, like perfectly exposed slides ... i guess it does what it is supposed to do.
personally, i also like using a box camera, i find it to be more fun than anything else.
isn't that what making images is supposed to be ?

we had a D-thing that had a bad lcd screen a while back, and it was a lot of fun to use
because you pointed and shot and you had no idea what the lens was looking at, or if
anything worked until the thing was stuck in the commuter and "developed"
 

j-dogg

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I have a similar reasoning with digital vs. analog, my Kodachrome project I wanted it to look as analog as possible so I used my Nikkormat FTN for the project.
 
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Well, not "simply." You have to know how it's done. It's a technical process, not magic. Yes, there's no art unless the photographer has some sort of vision, that doesn't come from the camera. But by choosing to use the camera to pass that vision on to others, then you engage the technology at some level, manipulate it. Choosing the camera means choosing a certain path, or from a set of available paths, to the result. The two aspects are not completely inseparable.

I guess what I'm saying is that for me the technology is a means to the end, whereas the vision is the end in itself. And vision is technology-independent. I don't need the technology to see. I need the technology to attempt to express what I see.

I agree with you that the choice of using camera technology in itself imposes constraints. By choosing to go out walking with a camera instead of, say, a set of watercolors or oils, I become limited by that choice in how I can communicate my vision. But only in how I can express it. Not in what I can see.

There is a 1979 book by William Crawford called "The Keepers of Light" in which he opens with a discussion of what he calls "Photographic Syntax." He defines this to be how photographic expression has of necessity followed photographic technology. One can only record what the technology of the time allows to be recorded.

For example, in the era of 30+ second exposures the expression incorrectly rendered was one of a far less populated planet. That technology limitation, certainly known by a photographer of that era, did not, however, limit his vision of a crowded city street. It limited only his ability to express that vision.

When I am out walking I do not confine myself solely to visions that I know can be recorded with camera equipment. Ask my wife how many times I utter the phrase, "Look at that! Isn't that great?" Her response is always that I should take a picture.

Sometimes the technology allows for that. Sometimes it doesn't. Either way, my excitement regarding what I am looking at is unaffected. And in my mind the photograph has already been drawn.

Ken
 
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Technology affect how I shoot

Arggghhh... Almost the very definition of what it is to be human is technological advance. It's what humans do. It's what humans have done throughout our entire history.

By it's very definition as one of humanity's creations, technology can not take away what makes us human. Because technology is in part what makes us human.



Oh please. Think about what you are saying. Inanimate objects are controlling you? Take responsibility for your own actions. If you shoot more carelessly, you personally are the only one to blame. It's not the camera -- it's you. And you know it.

Technology does affect how I shoot. Sure it's an inanimate object, but it does to a degree influence how I shoot. But it is part of the creative process. I pick and choose the tools that I shoot with depending on my subject matter and desired outcome. If it's a quickie job I'll probably pick a DSLR or shoot with my phone. If it's the shoot requires me to be more contemplative I'll probably shoot with film.

Yes humans have always wanted to advance technology. But with every advancement, there can be less thought during the artistic process. It's not all bad since it democratizes the creation art. Technology has also enabled corporations through mass media to shape the tastes of popular culture. It all comes down to how we choose to consume and produce media and art. The bottom line is that I use technology but I don't allow technology to use me.
 
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I know what it is for me. Back in 04 I got my Mamiya M645j with a 80mm lens. I did not even have a prism. Just very careful to not have the viewing glass fall out. I played with it a couple of months and, just tinkering around, the resulting photography was just yuck. When I decided to move up in format and use the MF predominantly and I began to get more gear, but not because of the gear, I began to take the camera and my photography more seriously and hence I paid better attention to what I was doing and the results were increased quality in work.

All throughout the work I did with my Minoltas remained superb. Not because of familiarity with the gear or any other reason other than I was used to doing good work with that camera and when I held it I did what I practiced. It took some changing of the way I approached the new camera both in thought and in practice before I noticed an increase of quality.

I think it more of the approach of the photographer. It has nothing to do with technology. I think it has everything to do with the seriousness with which the photography is approached.
 

Moopheus

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I guess what I'm saying is that for me the technology is a means to the end, whereas the vision is the end in itself. And vision is technology-independent. I don't need the technology to see. I need the technology to attempt to express what I see.

Yes, of course, that's what it is for any artist. But the actual art isn't what's in you're head, it's what's on the paper. Just having ideas in your head doesn't make you an artist; making art makes you an artist. And the tools you choose to use are part and parcel with that.
 
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Yes, of course, that's what it is for any artist. But the actual art isn't what's in you're head, it's what's on the paper. Just having ideas in your head doesn't make you an artist; making art makes you an artist. And the tools you choose to use are part and parcel with that.

But the tools (technology) do not dictate what's in your head. And that's where the creative event originates. Without that there is nothing to put to paper.

The OP was concerned with whether less technology resulted in better photographs. I am saying that greater or lesser levels of technology make no difference, unless you are allowing the technology to think for you.

A more expensive lens only creates a sharper rendition of a fuzzy concept, if that's all it has to work with.

Ken
 

Allen Friday

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But the tools (technology) do not dictate what's in your head. And that's where the creative event originates. Without that there is nothing to put to paper.

The OP was concerned with whether less technology resulted in better photographs. I am saying that greater or lesser levels of technology make no difference, unless you are allowing the technology to think for you.

Actually, technologies do dictate what is your head--literally. I cite you to "The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains," by Nicholas Carr, 2010:

"The recent discoveries about neuroplasticity make the essence of the intellect more visible, its steps and boundaries easier to mark. They tell us that the tools man has used to support or extend his nervous system... have shaped the physical structure and workings of the human mind. Their use has strengthened some neural circuits and weakened others, reinforcing certain mental traits while leaving others to fade away." p. 48

"If the experience of modern society shows us anything... it is that technologies are not merely aids to human activity, but also powerful forces acting to reshape that activity and its meaning.... Sometimes our tools do what we tell them to. Other times, we adapt ourselves to our tools' requirements." p. 47

"The tight bonds we formed with our tools go both ways. Even as our technologies become extensions of ourselves, we become extensions of our technologies... Every tool imposes limitations even as it opens possibilities. The more we use it, the more we mold ourselves to its form and function." p. 209
 
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Actually, technologies do dictate what is your head--literally. I cite you to "The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains," by Nicholas Carr, 2010

Dang!

I knew I should have bought the Deadorff instead of the Calumet 8x10. No telling how much better by now my photographs might have become...

:w00t: ... :wink:

Ken

P.S. Interesting premise. Does the author describe these changes as adaptive or (yikes!) evolutionary?
 

JBrunner

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That film in your hand? There is an astounding amount of technology there, and a big part of the aim of that technology has been to take care of you. Film is far from "low tech". Film just isn't hardware intensive, and in a hardware intensive time (driven mostly by marketing) we tend to forget that there are other kinds of advanced technology that aren't based on a gadget.
 

markbarendt

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That film in your hand? There is an astounding amount of technology there, and a big part of the aim of that technology has been to take care of you. Film is far from "low tech". Film just isn't hardware intensive, and in a hardware intensive time (driven mostly by marketing) we tend to forget that there are other kinds of advanced technology that aren't based on a gadget.

So true, the lure of novelty pushed hard by greed is strong.
 

Allen Friday

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Don't know if this answers your question, but I found it interesting and on point to the general discussion:

"Our ways of thinking, perceiving, and acting, we now know, are not entirely determined by our genes. Nor are they entirely determined by our childhood experiences. We change them through the way we live--and, as Nietzsche sensed, through the tools we use. Years before Edward Taub opened his rehabilitation clinic in Alabama, he conducted a famous experiment on a group of right handed violinists.... Playing a violin, a musical tool, had resulted in substantial physical changes in the brain. That was true even for the musicians who had first taken up their instruments as adults.
"When scientists have trained primates and other animals to use simple tools, they've discovered just how profoundly the brain can be influenced by technology.... The tools, so far as the animal's brains were concerned, had become part of their bodies. As the researchers who conducted the experiment with the pliers reported, the monkey's brains began to act 'as if the pliers were now the hand fingers.'"

pp. 31-2.

When Nietzsche changed from writing long hand and started using a typewriter, his writing style changed.

"When a carpenter picks up a hammer, the hammer becomes, so far as the brain is concerned, part of his hand.... The experiments on pliers-wielding monkeys revealed how readily the plastic primate brain can incorporate tools into its sensory maps, making the artificial feel real. In the human brain, that capacity has advanced far beyond what's seen in our closest primate cousins. Our ability to meld with all manner of tools is one of the qualities that most distinguishes us as a species. In combination with our superior cognitive skills, it's what makes us so good at using new technologies. It's also what make us so goo at inventing them. Our brains can imagine the mechanics and the benefits of using a new device before that device even exists." p. 208.

I have shot with a 6x7 camera for the last 10 years. In LF, I use 4x5, 8x10 and other formats which share the same aspect ratio. When I shoot with cameras that have a different format, e.g. 35mm, 6x4.5 or 12x20, my photos are not nearly as strong. When I look through the viewfinder of a 35mm camera, I am sometimes surprised at how the framing in the viewfinder differs from my mental picture of the framing before I bring the camera to the eye. I suppose one way to put it is that I have internalized the 8x10 aspect ratio. When I am out looking to photograph, or I am setting up a still life in the studio, I "see" the photo in that aspect ratio in my head before ever raising the camera to my eye. What is interesting about the book is the science of just what it means to "internalize" something. According to the author, relying on the latest science, we literally change the internal structure of our brains in response to the tools we use.
 

2F/2F

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How did this turn into yet another film and digital thread? I got the impression that the OP was simply comparing modern cameras to older cameras. While his or her example of a modern camera happened to be a digital one, the question did not seem to specifically lead to a film versus digital debate. Here on A.P.U.G., we have pre-selected a winner in any such debate, so why bother having it?
 

2F/2F

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If you set your exposure mode on "M", set your focus to "Manual", and use single-shot mode, how is your d***** camera different from your old mechanical SLR, aside from how the image is stored?

Exactly my point. Maybe not as fun or as comfortable and familiar as a nice old hunk of camera, but if you are a good photographer, it shouldn't make enough of a difference to make good photos bad or bad photos good. Any photographer who is skilled, hard working, and attentive will bend whatever camera he or she has to his or her whim, within the technical limits of the camera.
 
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How did this turn into yet another film and digital thread?

I wasn't under the impression that it had. I thought it was a greater/lesser technology discussion, and the effect of those on resulting photographs.

I'm a lesser tech kind of guy photographically. My sense was that I had not been allowing technology get in the way of my vision. (Modest though that may be, as I am far from an artist.)

But Allen has raised a very interesting argument which suggests that I may be doing just that without even realizing it. I'm still chewing over his last post.

But I didn't think film versus digital had much to do with it. Did I miss something? (Wouldn't be a first, for sure.)

Ken
 

blockend

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Digital photography has developed along different technological paths to film which makes it appear, and indeed sometimes is, more complicated. As a generalisation anyone familiar with the era of the fully manual film camera adopted automation incrementally, and decided which innovations were useful and what was superfluous to individual need. Digital cameras grew out of quite a complex and sophisticated film camera evolution which can appear counter-intuitive and an extra layer of technology to negotiate. For example, I have a new Sony compact that gets around its aperture limitations by digitally defocusing the background. That is a completely new aesthetic opportunity/problem that hasn't been exploited and there are similar examples arriving all the time. It will only be a matter of time before digital cameras include tilt and shift and visual artefacts thought of as the realm of the view camera. The Sony compact already has a digital version of stereo photography through a single lens.

The shrewd photographer will weigh up the changes digital photography offers and maintain his traditional film techniques alongside. Personally I find the potential of the digital moving image more compelling than stills as things stand currently.
 

anton_chang

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I believe technology in photography doesn't make us photographer become any better or less.
Using automated processes doesn't mean we don't take control of what we are doing or the opposite way of manual (lucky triggering).
We know how the automated processes work, and their range of limitation.
We are not robot or AI personal which programmed to do what do in our cognity (conscience).
WE still took control of what the technology had offer to us.
Some people is feel uncomfortable with this, some people found it the opposite way.
But I believe, as long as "taking" or "making" photograph is what we concern, any type of technology, improvement or else can be incorporated.
 

markbarendt

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Cool stuff Allen

The tools, so far as the animal's brains were concerned, had become part of their bodies. As the researchers who conducted the experiment with the pliers reported, the monkey's brains began to act 'as if the pliers were now the hand fingers.

There is the proof, I'm related to a monkey. :D

I do mechanics as my day job and yes the tools have become an extension of my fingers and I have learned to be able to use them without even looking.

For me this is true of every "tool" that I've ever spent a lot of effort on. From snow skis, to operating a 40 ton All-Terrain crane, to a camera.

When Nietzsche changed from writing long hand and started using a typewriter, his writing style changed.

I know that is true of me, when I use a word processor of any type (even writing this post) I am constantly revising and letting spell-check do it's magic, I "chimp-my-post" just as I might "chimp" with a digital camera constantly asking "did I get it right".

When I write on paper with analog instruments, and that paper will be given to someone, I compose more in my head first. Only after the sentence has some structure in my head is it committed to paper and even then spell-checking is done before the letters are printed. Imagination and visualization of the result, before the fact, is real.

NPR did a piece on Mark Twain's autobiography a few weeks back. Samuel Clemens it seems dictated his words for the most part.

From what the article said the sentences and thought were fully formed in his spoken words. Quite an achievement compared to my spoken words. :wink:

I have shot with a 6x7 camera for the last 10 years. In LF, I use 4x5, 8x10 and other formats which share the same aspect ratio. When I shoot with cameras that have a different format, e.g. 35mm, 6x4.5 or 12x20, my photos are not nearly as strong. When I look through the viewfinder of a 35mm camera, I am sometimes surprised at how the framing in the viewfinder differs from my mental picture of the framing before I bring the camera to the eye. I suppose one way to put it is that I have internalized the 8x10 aspect ratio. When I am out looking to photograph, or I am setting up a still life in the studio, I "see" the photo in that aspect ratio in my head before ever raising the camera to my eye.

I'm not pegged to a format but I do tend to frame for the camera at hand. That becomes a bit of a frustration at the enlarger. Standard papers and easels try to box us frugal-multi-aspect-ratio guys into "standard sizes". (Roll paper and multi-blade easels help.)

What is interesting about the book is the science of just what it means to "internalize" something. According to the author, relying on the latest science, we literally change the internal structure of our brains in response to the tools we use.

There is no doubt in my head about that, it takes a lot of practice to learn any tool well.
 

wclark5179

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"What are your experiences?"

Either method of capture works for me. I started with film back in the 1950's and now I operate my work cameras same as my film cameras, manually. I use off camera flash and they are operated in manual mode. Just what I do. I believe my film experience has helped me with the other method.

I like using film but for my business I use digital.

Each capture method has advantages.
 
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