The issue with 'freshly CLAd' cameras on the popular auction site

logan2z · Feb 5, 2021

Huss said:
I visited a camera store in San Fran in Cow Hollow.. they had two pristine Rollei 35 SEs. Said both just had a CLA. I checked them over, both had shutters that acted as if on B at 1/15 and under. They acted surprised..
(I've seen this issue on every freakin Rollei 35 that I have checked out. Done looking for one because prices now are sky high so not worth it to me to pay that and then have to get it repaired)

Yeah, stores can be hit or miss too. I bought a Hasselblad 500 C/M from a well-known store in Southern California that was supposed to be in perfect operating condition but had a bad light leak. Easy to fix, but annoying nonetheless (they never did send the replacement roll of film that they offered). I bought a Nikon FT3 from another well known store in Northern California and it had a mechanical fault. They happily refunded my money in full with no hassle. Still, it's annoying/disappointing to get a camera that is advertised as being in working order and it's not.

mooseontheloose · Feb 6, 2021

Oldwino said:
I just received a "mint", "no fog" lens from Japan from one of the newer dealers there. It was very hazy, so therefore not mint. I really don't know how they thought they would get away with that. Maybe it was haze free when they listed it, and it developed it during transit? (joke)
Anyway, back it went.
Terms like "mint" or "nearly mint" or anything with "++++" attached to it are suspect now. I'll stick to the few old-timers that I have bought from before - sometimes the price is a little higher, but they've never mis-represented the condition.

I find this incredibly annoying. What does nearly mint +++++ mean? Also, if I see something listed as mint or nearly mint, the photos better show that - if they don't (and they usually don't), I'll pass on the seller. There are still a few good sellers from Japan with honest listings, but it seems now that they have fallen prey to what everyone else is doing, and over-inflating the condition of whatever they are selling.

grat · Feb 6, 2021

My experience with the Japanese sellers is that the headline is meaningless.

But the body of the description usually contains accurate information.

Wayne · Feb 6, 2021

grat said:
My experience with the Japanese sellers is that the headline is meaningless.

But the body of the description usually contains accurate information.

Correct. Usually. Their rating scale is accurate too, if you understand how its calibrated

Mint= not mint at all
very excellent=very well used, with plenty of evidence of it
excellent = KEH "bargain", ie maybe usable, maybe not.
good= junk
junk= boat anchor

Huss · Feb 6, 2021

Wayne said:
Correct. Usually. Their rating scale is accurate too, if you understand how its calibrated

Mint= not mint at all
very excellent=very well used, with plenty of evidence of it
excellent = KEH "bargain", ie maybe usable, maybe not.
good= junk
junk= boat anchor

To be fair, you are missing the top ratings on the Japanese ebay scale:

Never used = failed QC at factory, meant to be crushed and thrown into landfill
Open box = see excellent condition, but box looks like new
Like new = returned item due to jammed shutter.
Like new - = no dents, fungus has been removed
Mint ++ = the body looks mint if you don't turn it over, minor fungus only in the viewfinder
Mint + = sorta mint but with minor fungus that would not make any difference, maybe
Mint= not mint at all
very excellent=very well used, with plenty of evidence of it
excellent = KEH "bargain", ie maybe usable, maybe not.
good= junk
junk= boat anchor

Wayne · Feb 7, 2021

Huss said:
To be fair, you are missing the top ratings on the Japanese ebay scale:

Never used = failed QC at factory, meant to be crushed and thrown into landfill
Open box = see excellent condition, but box looks like new
Like new = returned item due to jammed shutter.
Like new - = no dents, fungus has been removed
Mint ++ = the body looks mint if you don't turn it over, minor fungus only in the viewfinder
Mint + = sorta mint but with minor fungus that would not make any difference, maybe
Mint= not mint at all
very excellent=very well used, with plenty of evidence of it
excellent = KEH "bargain", ie maybe usable, maybe not.
good= junk
junk= boat anchor

That post was Excellent ++++, with only a few fungus that does not affect post

Here's a real one from today:

★ Total
Excellent

★ Appearance
There is deterioration over time.
There are no holes in the bellows.
*Please check photos.

★ Optics
There is a crack in the viewfinder glass.
There is no fog.
There is no fungus.
There is no scratches.
There is peeling of the lens coating.
There is no separation.

★ Functional
The shutter cannot be released below 25.

Sounds "Excellent!!"

JBrunner · Feb 8, 2021

The issue with 'freshly CLAd' cameras on the popular auction site...

BrianShaw · Feb 8, 2021

JBrunner said:
The issue with 'freshly CLAd' cameras on the popular auction site...

... is that seller transparency is often quite hazy and buyer expectations are often too enthusiastic.

Tom Kershaw · Feb 8, 2021

I'm not sure about the situation in the USA, but here in the UK some eBay sellers post higher than market value prices, going from what you'd pay at a conventional photographic dealer.

logan2z · Feb 8, 2021

Tom Kershaw said:
I'm not sure about the situation in the USA, but here in the UK some eBay sellers post higher than market value prices, going from what you'd pay at a conventional photographic dealer.

There are probably a variety of reasons for that, but covering the high cost of eBay seller fees is definitely one of them.

If I see something for sale on eBay by a seller with a brick and mortar store and/or their own e-commerce site their non-eBay asking price is invariably lower.

Wayne · Feb 8, 2021

Tom Kershaw said:
I'm not sure about the situation in the USA, but here in the UK some eBay sellers post higher than market value prices, going from what you'd pay at a conventional photographic dealer.

Yeah, when ebay went from being an auction site to being a storefront the market stopped setting the prices. Now you have someone overpricing something and 34 other sellers "watching" the "auction" (which isn't an auction) to see if they can do the same thing. I think most of the Mamiya 6's would be selling for $50-100 bucks at auction, but most are asking twice that. And I guess they get it, eventually?

removedacct2 · Feb 8, 2021

darinwc said:
Having tinkered on many cameras.. A "clean and lube" is the easy part. 9/10 times it is just the slow speed escapement that just needs to be cleaned and everything just works.

It is the "adjust" that is difficult without specialized equipment. Without that, even the most experienced technician is worthless. And this is what you are really paying for. The last of the good repair shops have all the original tools and test equipment to put a camera back into factory specs or better. And they will warranty their work for a period of time.

Some of these ebay merchants may be ex technicians, you never know.
These ebay "clas" are probably ok , but I would not pay a premium for them unless they warranty for 6 months. Buying anything used is a gamble.

besides some ebay sellers are indeed just brick and mortar photographic shops

some of the ebay sellers can also be guys like you who have been tinkering and learning over the years and do fix more or less of a camera or lens.

It's like old 2nd-hand cars: many people have been maintaining/servicing themselves to some extend. As a buyer it means that you can make your mind if you are able to discuss what was done, which means you are yourself more or less of a tinkerer.

watches and cameras repairshops are scarce and many guys are now retired, working at slower pace as a supplementing income and hobby, so we who use mechanical cameras better learn to fix the most we can ourselves. I have all my user cameras in double, one for use, one for learning. Soviet stuff is very convenient for this because cheaper, I still struggle in putting together a Salyut but when I succeed I can fix a Hasselblad 1000f for instance (at which point problem is lack of parts, for instance the curtains). When you can rebuild a Zorki or Fed then you can fix a M39 Leica. Even if a camera differs, you still have gained a know-how for yourself.

BrianShaw · Feb 8, 2021

Wayne said:
I think most of the Mamiya 6's would be selling for $50-100 bucks at auction, but most are asking twice that. And I guess they get it, eventually?

For some buyers that is the price of convenience. For others, the price of ignorance (not knowing all of the facts and options)

JBrunner · Feb 8, 2021

There is need, as well. I searched the planet for two years for a Pentax 67 Lensbaby. When one appeared on the auction site, what I had to gain outweighed the risks.

albireo · Feb 8, 2021

antonio_b said:
some of the ebay sellers can also be guys like you who have been tinkering and learning over the years and do fix more or less of a camera or lens.

Does this 'more or less' mean I will get a perfectly functioning camera, an invoice and a 6 month warranty (if the CLA is stated, of course)? Because then I might go for it!

grat · Feb 8, 2021

If you're buying blind on eBay, you're going to get screwed sooner or later.

Do your research. Know what you're buying, what a fair price is, and what the going rate on eBay is.

There are no guarantees when buying decades old equipment, regardless of source, provenance or care.

removedacct2 · Feb 8, 2021

albireo said:
Does this 'more or less' mean I will get a perfectly functioning camera, an invoice and a 6 month warranty (if the CLA is stated, of course)? Because then I might go for it!

of course not. I made the comparison with 2nd hand cars that have been self-serviced. The only way to get an idea is to have yourself experience with tinkering and selv-service, so you can get a rough idea. You are on your own.
This is relatively to OP comment about frequency of listings claiming DIY servicing.

Otherwise don't go on ebay or go on it by a previous search. For instance when i was looking for a Rollei SL66 I went on google.de with "Rollei SL66 überholt/werkstatt überholt" which brought few street stores like Heidi in München, Wiese/Fotohandel in Hamburg, and their respective listings plus couple other listings on ebay. Or search in for überholt on ebay.DE. As for me it was about getting a cheap 1-hour plane ticket to Hamburg, go talk and examine couple cameras in store, buy it, have some Astra pils, shoot the camera around in Hamburg and take the next morning plane to Oslo and develop the rolls back home. Done, why bother with online, I get Germany around the corner and it's full of Rollei. Leica, Linhof, Pentacon. Once I was thinking of a Hasselblad 1000F so i went looking on swedish listings site Tradera and couple street shops in Stockholm, I have 4 hours drive to Göteborg, five to Stockholm, so why bother. Of course gringos in their gringoland that's something else.

But then a Rollei SL66 system isn't cheap, so a +200€ for a checkup and required basic refresh makes not much difference.
But if you are after a Salyut or Kiev-88, then 200€ is the price of the camera itself, so any service on top will add significantly, unless you live in Ukraine or Russia

if you want cheap you must try your chance. For instance if you want cheap AND checked by a pro, soviet stuff, you have guys like the ones working under ebay account yurets.perfect (https://www.ebay.com/usr/yurets.perfect?_trksid=p2053788.m1543.l2754) these guys ARE micro-technicians, who do watches and cameras, they sell overhauled/checked cameras with a 14-days return right and send you a demonstration video with the sale. Have a look at their prices and it's more than most other sellers of soviet stuff. They are pro, though you can't check by yourself, because a cetificate/diplom of fotomester in russian means nothing to you ...

Huss · Feb 8, 2021

grat said:
If you're buying blind on eBay, you're going to get screwed sooner or later..

not really, if there is a legitimate issue ebay always sides with the buyer. Doesn't matter if the seller said 'no returns' in the ad. If what you get didn't match the description, ebay will be on your side.
Been through this a bunch of times. Never had a problem returning stuff.

grat · Feb 8, 2021

Huss said:
not really, if there is a legitimate issue ebay always sides with the buyer. Doesn't matter if the seller said 'no returns' in the ad. If what you get didn't match the description, ebay will be on your side.
Been through this a bunch of times. Never had a problem returning stuff.

What's your time worth? How many better opportunities did you miss while playing pass-the-parcel?

Or, you could actually do the research, know what you're buying, know what to look for, and what to avoid, and get it right the first time.

On the plus side, the US Postal Service probably appreciates your business (although I wish they'd dig my latest purchase out of whatever snowbank it's sitting in, and deliver it).

Ariston · Feb 8, 2021

I was just looking at a listing with "replaced light seals," complete with photos of the light seals, which were deteriorating and half missing.

logan2z · Feb 8, 2021

Ariston said:
I was just looking at a listing with "replaced light seals," complete with photos of the light seals, which were deteriorating and half missing.

Did he say he replaced them with new light seals?

Ariston · Feb 8, 2021

logan2z said:
Did he say he replaced them with new light seals?

Good point! - Maybe he just replaced them with old light seals from another camera!

Huss · Feb 9, 2021

grat said:
What's your time worth? How many better opportunities did you miss while playing pass-the-parcel?

Or, you could actually do the research, know what you're buying, know what to look for, and what to avoid, and get it right the first time.

On the plus side, the US Postal Service probably appreciates your business (although I wish they'd dig my latest purchase out of whatever snowbank it's sitting in, and deliver it).

Spend next to no time on ebay - find the item, place the bid. If it pans out - great. If not, seller pays for return.
Ebay provides a huge market place, if I want something chances are it is there. Waiting for something to appear on the classifieds elsewhere can take forever, if it even appears.
And the odds of getting screwed over are much greater at places that do not have purchase protection like ebay.

I do the research. I know what I am buying. Or at least we think we do. There is still that element of the unknown unless you can meet face to face with the seller, and test the gear out right there.
If not, you're trusting whatever seller you're dealing with. Ebay protects the buyer. And I've also had excellent results with places like robertscamera/usephotopro, keh, adorama and B&H. The later two have a much smaller used film gear selection.

Places where I have had issues? This site. Rangefinderforum.com. From established members..

cptrios · Mar 6, 2021

This thread has been particularly funny to me of late. A few weeks ago, I bought a freshly CLA's Olympus 35SP, and made sure to get a screenshot of the seller's CLA recept before I bought. When I tried the camera out, focus was misaligned and the backplate was putting a noteworthy scratch in the film. The former issue was obviously much more significant, but I don't blame the seller for either of them. Yes, it might have been nice if he'd shot a roll between the CLA and the sale, which would have at least shown up the focus problem (I actually think the lens might have bigger issues than just focus). But he was extremely apologetic and polite, and took the camera back with no issue.

Just yesterday I received a Vivitar 35ES from a seller who did his own CLA. Seemed to check out well enough. He said he'd adjusted the meter to work with 1.5v batteries, so I was obviously interested to see how that was working out. I checked it against a film Rebel with a 40mm lens, and a Pentax K2 with a 50, and while they were consistent, the Vivitar was reading 1-2 stops overexposed. Red flag, obviously. Went outside, shot a roll, and not only did it dramatically overexpose normally, but the shutter sometimes stuck as well. I feel significantly less understanding about this one, considering the meter issue should have been obvious!

removedacct2 · Mar 6, 2021

cptrios said:
made sure to get a screenshot of the seller's CLA recept before I bought. When I tried the camera out, focus was misaligned and the backplate was putting a noteworthy scratch in the film

this is very bad the receipt was a fake then.

The issue with 'freshly CLAd' cameras on the popular auction site

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The issue with 'freshly CLAd' cameras on the popular auction site

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