The issue with 'freshly CLAd' cameras on the popular auction site

cliveh · Jan 29, 2021

Well a few years ago I sold a Leica IIIg on ebay, but before selling I had it cleaned and serviced by a reputable repairer. When offered for sale I listed the repairer and offered full documentation in support. I also offered full refund if not pleased with camera. I would suggest that anything less will negate any credibility in your standing for future sales. I have even sold cameras at a loss to support this honesty.

wyofilm · Jan 29, 2021

Alan Gales said:
I agree. They need to show you a receipt and mail it to you along with the item if you buy it. I've seen eBay sales with a photograph of the CLA or repair receipt along with photo's of the item.

I would never CLA a camera or lens before selling it. It's just not profitable. On the other hand, a few do have an item CLA'd or repaired before they sell it. Usually, they were planning on keeping it when CLA'd but later decided to sell for some reason.

I've bought three cameras that were cla'd before the seller sold them. Assuming that they do it for reasons other than altruism, then it was profitable for them. In two cases, the transaction was with someone who had a strong reputation, the third I took a bit of a gamble, and it seems to have paid off. In that last 'risky' instance, I've had the camera now for 2 years+ and it is performed well.

Of course I paid more for these cameras than what like cameras were listed for. For one case it was with certo6 who has fixes and rebuilds, etc, a variety of folding cameras. I could have have gone the other way, purchased a camera then sent it to certo6. That seems bas-ackwards if he already has a cla'd example ready to sell me.

ic-racer · Jan 29, 2021

I avoid any camera that appears to have been opened is described as having been opened. CLA does not mean anything to me. What was cleaned? What was adjusted and why?

Sirius Glass · Jan 29, 2021

cliveh said:
Well a few years ago I sold a Leica IIIg on ebay, but before selling I had it cleaned and serviced by a reputable repairer. When offered for sale I listed the repairer and offered full documentation in support. I also offered full refund if not pleased with camera. I would suggest that anything less will negate any credibility in your standing for future sales. I have even sold cameras at a loss to support this honesty.

But you are the exception and the exception proves the rule.

wyofilm · Jan 29, 2021

Here is an example.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-Cano...698370?hash=item2f53576142:g:QYcAAOSwLv9gEgfb

I don't know anything at all about this seller except for what he has posted on his ebay site. He lists what is included in a cla of this canon-canonet-ql17. Specifics are a good sign. This might be a fun camera to have. His rating is 100% with a fair number of ratings. That is a good sign. He has been an ebay seller for 20 years. A good sign. Free 30-day return (presumably buyer pays for return shipping). A good sign. What else does he sell? Cameras, lens, and accessories, but not a large inventory. A good sign. More than that, he has two like model cameras in the same price range and condition (also cla'd). A good sign because he has experience with the model camera. He also sells cameras (similar price range) that aren't CLA'd. Does this mean that the CLA'd cameras have had something useful done to them? Ahhhh ... I'm guessing so, but the entire picture has to be looked at. Would I buy this camera? If I were looking for this particular camera, then I might give it a go. It is in the top 1/3 bracket for price when compared to other cameras. Should I specifically not buy a CLA'd camera because? I don't think so. No EVERYONE is trying to cheat me. Cautious is the way.

Alan Gales · Jan 29, 2021

wyofilm said:
I've bought three cameras that were cla'd before the seller sold them. Assuming that they do it for reasons other than altruism, then it was profitable for them. In two cases, the transaction was with someone who had a strong reputation, the third I took a bit of a gamble, and it seems to have paid off. In that last 'risky' instance, I've had the camera now for 2 years+ and it is performed well.

Of course I paid more for these cameras than what like cameras were listed for. For one case it was with certo6 who has fixes and rebuilds, etc, a variety of folding cameras. I could have have gone the other way, purchased a camera then sent it to certo6. That seems bas-ackwards if he already has a cla'd example ready to sell me.

CLA's are not cheap. If you add the price of the CLA plus what you paid in gas or postage to get it CLA'd, it is really hard to recoup that amount in the sale. Just my 2 cents.

I used to be an eBay Seller of film gear. Mostly medium and large format gear.

Huss · Jan 29, 2021

Some verifications of CLAs adds serious value to a camera.
For example, having a Nikon F2 worked on by Sover Wong, or a Rolleiflex by Harry Fleenor.

Dan Fromm · Jan 29, 2021

Huss said:
Some verifications of CLAs adds serious value to a camera.
For example, having a Nikon F2 worked on by Sover Wong, or a Rolleiflex by Harry Fleenor.

Yes indeed. Many years ago when my mother-in-law died I sold my father-in-law's Retina IIIC (large C) for the estate. Its cocking rack was kaput and it had other problems. As was, it would have sold for junk. I sent it to a known Retina specialist, put it up on eBay as having made good by him. The price it brought much more than repaid the specialist's bill.

Maris · Jan 29, 2021

There is another trap I've fallen into. Bought an absolutely mint perfect Seagull TLR off eBay without wondering why a 45 year old camera should look so good. Yep, it had failed brand new out of the box and was just put away until resurfacing on the 'Bay years later.

wyofilm · Jan 29, 2021

Coincidentally, my most recent ebay purchase came in today. It is a Yachica - 12 and was CLA'd by Mark Hama last August 2020. I was shocked when I opened the box and unwrapped the packaging. It looks like it is the closest thing I have to new film camera - and it was built in the late 60's. The leather case shows considerable where and there is some (small amount) of dirt on the ground glass. All shutter functions appear correct. I'll test this later. Light meter appears to be working correctly, also for testing later.

wyofilm · Jan 29, 2021

Alan Gales said:
CLA's are not cheap. If you add the price of the CLA plus what you paid in gas or postage to get it CLA'd, it is really hard to recoup that amount in the sale. Just my 2 cents.

I used to be an eBay Seller of film gear. Mostly medium and large format gear.

I can't imagine SELLING on ebay anymore. It appears that eBay often wrongly sides with the buyer. With care, I think that life is better for the buyer.

wyofilm · Jan 29, 2021

There is always a risk buying used cameras. I bought one from Adorama a few years ago. I kept it because it works perfectly well, but I would say that it arrived in rougher condition than the description suggested. My worst camera purchase came from buying here on Photrio. It cost real coin to get that camera up to snuff.

btaylor · Jan 29, 2021

Alan Gales said:
I agree. They need to show you a receipt and mail it to you along with the item if you buy it. I've seen eBay sales with a photograph of the CLA or repair receipt along with photo's of the item.

I would never CLA a camera or lens before selling it. It's just not profitable. On the other hand, a few do have an item CLA'd or repaired before they sell it. Usually, they were planning on keeping it when CLA'd but later decided to sell for some reason.

This has certainly happened to me a few times. The CLA costs exceeded the value (and ultimate sales price) of my fully serviced cameras. I enjoyed the cameras while I had them and was pleased that the buyers would be able to take great photos with them for years. Yes, it was a little painful (I am in business and make it a practice to make a profit!) but it was a small price to pay to enjoy my hobby.

Sirius Glass · Jan 29, 2021

Again if one buys from KEH and other camera stores, if a CLA or other repair is needed, that will be covered. So for peace of mind I avoid eBay even though I have bought some lenses from there and did not experience problems.

BrianShaw · Jan 29, 2021

wyofilm said:
My worst camera purchase came from buying here on Photrio.

Likewise... my worst sale was on APUG. Sold a trustworthy camera I wasn’t using for a song because I felt the kid was sincere. He broke the camera by forcing it, blamed the post office, and then returned it for a refund. Guess what I found - it had the wrong battery held in place with a wad of aluminum foil. Learned 2 things: don’t sell cameras and stop being benevolent.

Slixtiesix · Jan 30, 2021

I think in many cases it is their own "backyard workshop" who did the "CLA". I would not make my buying decision dependent on such promises. I would recommend buying a pristine camera at bargain price and put money aside for the CLA if needed, or buy newer cameras (talking of 20-30 years) that may not give any issues in the foreseeable future.

xya · Jan 30, 2021

I have a trustworthy repair man, so I buy cheap from ebay and I immediately send it to him. before I sell a camera, he looks at it and does what may be necessary. nobody ever complained. I don't sell on ebay anymore, too many dishonest buyers and yes, ebay sides with the buyers.

neilt3 · Jan 30, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
How may who sell cameras on eBay have any idea what a CLA is or entails?

Ebay sellers definition of a CLA ; Cleaned with a Loose rag soaked in Alcohol ?
Ebay sellers idea of "Refurbished" ; Removed the worst of the crud with an old toothbrush before wiping the camera down with a pair of old underpants ( shorts ) ( hopefully after they were cleaned ).

I won't buy a camera off ebay listed as CLA'd as I just know that either the seller is lying ( and what else are they lying about ) or they've messed about with it themselves and there might be bit's missing , broke , or just badly put back together and might not be serviceable by a proper service engineer anymore .
I see a lot of modern SLR's being sold as " seller refurbished " .
Their essentially a box full of electronics , which if a part goes faulty , it needs a replacement part , i.e a repair .
There is nothing to " refurbish " , if they opened it up and done anything inside it , they've likely done more harm than good .
At best they can only have cleaned the outside of the camera , to claim any more is just being dishonest and trying to sell it as something it isn't .
Avoid these sellers .

beemermark · Jan 30, 2021

I start to be concerned on any camera listed as having a "CLA" on any website. Too many amateurs considered them themselves to be a experts because they got a camera to work after tinkering with it.

Sirius Glass · Jan 30, 2021

beemermark said:
I start to be concerned on any camera listed as having a "CLA" on any website. Too many amateurs considered them themselves to be a experts because they got a camera to work after tinkering with it.

If a store then it most likely had a CLA. If a private party, ask for documentation.

beemermark · Jan 30, 2021

Even a store is somewhat suspect. I bought a Nikon F2AS from a well know web dealer that ha a complete CLA only to fail within days. The store did offer a 6 month warranty so I got my money back. Something unlikely to happen with a private seller.

grat · Jan 30, 2021

I find there are no absolutes. When buying from eBay, caution, and a little bit of luck, is required.

Although, in the vein of this thread, I bought a Yashica-12 that was "just CLA'd" (not, I might add, by Mark Hama). First time I turned the focus knob, it went *TH-UNK*, and never moved again. The seller admitted he'd had that problem, and thought he'd fixed it, and was fine with my returning the item.

I found a different Yashica-12 in very good cosmetic condition with a few minor issues, bought it at a low price, and immediately forwarded it to Mr. Hama. I now have a Yashica-12 that cosmetically is a 9.5/10, and functionally is a 10/10.

Similarly, I picked up a Bessa I for a similarly low price-- and was able to fix most of it's issues myself. The shutter is still a bit flaky at 1/10th and 1, but otherwise, it's running very nicely.

I don't think I've bought a used camera yet that didn't need a little tuning or repair work.

Grim Tuesday · Jan 30, 2021

So to answer the original question about if there is something new going on with Covid and camera repair, I think the answer is yes. If you check out learncamerarepair.com, you will see that a very nice old camera repair tech, Gene Pate is posting with permission, the National Camera Repair correspondence course that most camera techs in the US were trained on. He also has a facebook group where he answers people's questions. It's a great resource, and I was able to learn how to take apart and put back together a compur shutter, which I spent a few months doing at the beginning of covid. It isn't a dark art. I am sure others are doing the same thing, with varying degrees of quality and success, and I am very careful of anyone selling cameras "freshly CLA'd" as a result. I am especially skeptical of anyone who does CLAs of cameras and claims to be able to re-set the infinity position without an autocollimator, which have become quite rare.

cptrios · Jan 30, 2021

Hah, this thread is interesting. I'm actually toying with selling my Autocord at some point soon...which I had CLA'd by Karl Bryan a few months ago. For me, one big red flag with items that make this claim is that they're priced at less than $200. I don't know what the cheapest CLA goes for, but I'd wager $200 is just about it!

jssaraiva · Jan 31, 2021

Like others have mentioned, I also sell recently CLA’d cameras on eBay and I’d like to add a few comments:

1) sometimes I buy something looking to use it, have it firstly CLA’d then after a few months I actually don’t enjoy it as I don’t adapt to the ergonomics (e.g. sold recently a Rolleicord Vb due to this) or too modern rendering or something and sell it;
2) other times I buy, like recently, a Rolleiflex 3.5B and like it a lot but prefer to almost immediately upgrade to a 3.5F and so there goes a freshly CLA’d 3.5B for sale;
3) on some instances if I happen to find locally a neglected but good model and serviceable camera, at a nice price that can still accommodate a reasonable CLA cost (see below) I might buy it thinking to sell it with some sort of margin but mainly after enjoying a test drive (I love using/testing different cameras) while also supporting the local repair service and to offset often big losses with point nr 1 above
4) The cost of living is not the same across countries, you can have a full CLA for way less than what is described here, by a reputable shop/technician in a significant part of the world.

The issue with 'freshly CLAd' cameras on the popular auction site

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