The issue with 'freshly CLAd' cameras on the popular auction site

albireo · Jan 29, 2021

Having recently decided to consider the purchase of a new medium format camera, I've started with my usual 'ebay dance', mostly on the UK and German versions of the site, to get ballpark figures for condition, price, accessories, what sold, what didn't sell, and so on.

While doing this, I noticed an interesting phenomenon in which many sellers will have some flavour of the following in their item's description:

-'freshly CLAd'
-'just out of the workshop'
-'professionally overhauled'

And so on. However, having contacted a few of these sellers to investigate the details of the CLA (what was done, who did it, what's the warranty, is there written proof, etc) the answer is, invariably, either silence or some variation of 'actually I did it'.

I'm just wondering if there is some sort of 'self-repair' thing going on where bored, Covid-recluse film camera owners give it a go at 'fixing' a camera, having perhaps learnt from a couple of youtube videos, before attempting to dump the result on the auction sites?

What have people's experiences been in this regard? What I slightly worry about is, with the increase of 'self repair' videos on youtube, are more people opening up those poor Rolleis and Hassleblad with only a faint idea about what they're doing, and, importantly, should we expect an increasing number of knackered/misaligned/miscalibrated classic cameras for sale?

RalphLambrecht · Jan 29, 2021

albireo said:
Having recently decided to consider the purchase of a new medium format camera, I've started with my usual 'ebay dance', mostly on the UK and German versions of the site, to get ballpark figures for condition, price, accessories, what sold, what didn't sell, and so on.

While doing this, I noticed an interesting phenomenon in which many sellers describe their unit with some variation of the following:

-'freshly CLAd'
-'just out of the workshop'
-'professionally overhauled'

And so on. However, having contacted a few of these sellers to investigate the details of the CLA (what was done, who did it, what's the warranty, is there written proof, etc) the answer is, invariably, either silence or some variation of 'actually I did it'.

I'm just wondering if there is some sort of 'self-repair' thing going on where bored, Covid-recluse film camera owners give it a go at 'fixing' their camera, having perhaps learnt from a couple of youtube videos, before attempting to dump the result on the auction sites?

What have people's experiences been in this regard? What I slightly worry about is, with the increase of 'self repair' videos on youtube, are more people opening up those poor Rolleis and Hassleblad with only a faint idea about what they're doing, and, importantly, should we expect an increasing number of knackered/misaligned/miscalibrated classic cameras for sale?

RalphLambrecht · Jan 29, 2021

A little screwdriver can save you a $300 repair and turn it into a $500 repair.

Helge · Jan 29, 2021

It’s the new “mint”.
Just always, always ask for thorough documentation on the CLA.
And if you can be bothered contact the guy who supposedly did it, to confirm.

Self “CLA” is as irritating and unnecessary as someone who proudly, smugly and with the zeal of a six year old announces that they “cleaned” the product you’re looking at.

It will never ever be done with as much diligence, care and research as when it’s something you intend to keep and treasure.

Sellers, just don’t.

Reminds me of the recent trend for “refurbished” stuff being sold in shops.
“Refurbished” is one of those elastic words that could cover anything from a quick wipe-down to a yearlong overhaul by an expert craftsman.

lecarp · Jan 29, 2021

-'freshly CLAd'
-'just out of the workshop'
-'professionally overhauled'

Also know as, I shot it full of lighter fluid!

I would rather buy an unserviced camera that has not been abused and pay a professional to repair (CLA,etc) it properly.

fs999 · Jan 29, 2021

I've seen *** MINT *** in titles and "for parts" or "for pieces" in the description

Helinophoto · Jan 29, 2021

I only buy from Japan on eBay, they are usually both honest and very thorough in terms of information.
Never been disappointed.

Wallendo · Jan 29, 2021

My experience with such items, mostly from Ukrainian and Russian sellers, is that such service often is substandard. Items are taken apart, cleaned, and shims left out when reassembled, etc.
My general approach to this is:
1) Why would an eBay seller pay for a CLA just to sell a camera? As a result I avoid "recent" CLA'd items. I can make an exception for items CLA'd a year or more ago, however.
2) There are legitimate people who buy cameras they understand, repair them and sell them. The problem is identifying these sellers.

Nitroplait · Jan 29, 2021

At any mention of a "recent CLA", I insist on seeing the documentation to verify what has been done and that it was performed by a reputable camera tech.
Without the documentation I walk away, the seller is either lying, sloppy - which would likely be reflected in the state of the camera, or it is a amateur job - all good reasons not to get involved.

sterioma · Jan 29, 2021

I am not sure it's an issue with eBay only.

I have bought two cameras recently from different professional sellers/shops (outside of ebay), both of which had been "reviewed" by a technician and both of them had to go back for a fix after a couple of days (still waiting for them to be returned to me).

wyofilm · Jan 29, 2021

Wallendo said:
My experience with such items, mostly from Ukrainian and Russian sellers, is that such service often is substandard. Items are taken apart, cleaned, and shims left out when reassembled, etc.
My general approach to this is:
1) Why would an eBay seller pay for a CLA just to sell a camera? As a result I avoid "recent" CLA'd items. I can make an exception for items CLA'd a year or more ago, however.
2) There are legitimate people who buy cameras they understand, repair them and sell them. The problem is identifying these sellers.

Certo6, a reputable camera repair and online seller can be trusted for folding cameras. I bought a cla'd folder from him. It is great.

I just purchased a TLR camera that was recently CLA'd (within the last few months) by Mark Hama. This camera is being sold by an individual. My anticipation is that it will be great.

In the past, I bought a Voightlander Bessa II from a camera seller in the Netherlands (the name of the camera shop escapes me right now), but they performed a CLA on it before posting it on eBay. It has performed great.

Every purchase on eBay requires some scrutiny, but so far my experience has been good buying cameras serviced by the seller. In the first case, the reputation of the name is well known. In the second case it was an established camera shop with a strong rating. I'll let the forum know in a couple days how the Yashica 12 tlr purchase works out.

Kodachromeguy · Jan 29, 2021

I think you have a dilemma with three paths or outcomes:

1. Buy a camera/lens where the seller claims to have cleaned/repaired it and trust that he really did it.
2. Buy an item that is supposed to be fully functional but assume that you will eventually (or soon) need to send it off for repair at your cost. In this case, you can trust the result, but it costs money out of your pocket as well as weeks or months waiting.
3. But an item sold as non-functional or for parts only, and then gamble that it can be repaired. The issue: is it cheap enough to make this gamble? Is it truly dead forever? Do you want to spend the cost and effort of sending it off only to be told that it cannot be repaired?

The terms "MINT" or "REFURBISHED" mean absolutely nothing. The details are what count. I have found that US sellers are the most lazy (or is it stupid?) with respect to photographs, descriptions, and even the most basic checks, such as opening the battery compartment of a used camera.

wyofilm · Jan 29, 2021

Kodachromeguy said:
I think you have a dilemma with three paths or outcomes:

1. Buy a camera/lens where the seller claims to have cleaned/repaired it and trust that he really did it.
2. Buy an item that is supposed to be fully functional but assume that you will eventually (or soon) need to send it off for repair at your cost. In this case, you can trust the result, but it costs money out of your pocket as well as weeks or months waiting.
3. But an item sold as non-functional or for parts only, and then gamble that it can be repaired. The issue: is it cheap enough to make this gamble? Is it truly dead forever? Do you want to spend the cost and effort of sending it off only to be told that it cannot be repaired?

The terms "MINT" or "REFURBISHED" mean absolutely nothing. The details are what count. I have found that US sellers are the most lazy (or is it stupid?) with respect to photographs, descriptions, and even the most basic checks, such as opening the battery compartment of a used camera.

Generalities don't fly when buying a camera from eBay or used camera sellers. I bought an F6 which was said to cla'd (including firmware update) from the Japan Camera Hunter. The camera is excellent; it has no flaws that I can detect. It came with a warranty. Ditto KEH. A few posts above, I mention other reputable sites. I have also bought cameras from private (non-professional camera sellers) and have always had good outcomes. Lucky? Maybe.
Rules to live by (for me) for professional sellers:
1. They must accept returns.
2. Rating of 99%+ is a must.
3. Number of ratings must be high.
4. They must specialize in cameras. I'm not buying a camera from someone who usually sells t-shirts!
5. The stock they carry must be comparable to the camera equipment I'm buying. I'm not buying an expensive camera from someone who also sells for 'parts-only' cameras. If you are buying an expensive camera, buy from sellers who sell expensive cameras.
6. Be cautious if the smallest thing doesn't seem right. There have been times when I walked away because 'something' just didn't seem right.
7. The price must match the item.
8. Japan camera sellers have worked for me, but to be honest many of the Japanese camera sellers are starting to look sketchy to me.

Using the above rules, I have done well.

BrianShaw · Jan 29, 2021

Kodachromeguy said:
I think you have a dilemma with three paths or outcomes:

Success depends a lot upon being a very well-informed buyer. Knowing a lot about the item, especially if it’s more knowledge than the seller may have, helps swing the bet in the buyer’s favor.

Sirius Glass · Jan 29, 2021

wyofilm said:
Generalities don't fly when buying a camera from eBay or used camera sellers. I bought an F6 which was said to cla'd (including firmware update) from the Japan Camera Hunter. The camera is excellent; it has no flaws that I can detect. It came with a warranty. Ditto KEH. A few posts above, I mention other reputable sites. I have also bought cameras from private (non-professional camera sellers) and have always had good outcomes. Lucky? Maybe.
Rules to live by (for me) for professional sellers:
1. They must accept returns.
2. Rating of 99%+ is a must.
3. Number of ratings must be high.
4. They must specialize in cameras. I'm not buying a camera from someone who usually sells t-shirts!
5. The stock they carry must be comparable to the camera equipment I'm buying. I'm not buying an expensive camera from someone who also sells for 'parts-only' cameras. If you are buying an expensive camera, buy from sellers who sell expensive cameras.
6. Be cautious if the smallest thing doesn't seem right. There have been times when I walked away because 'something' just didn't seem right.
7. The price must match the item.
8. Japan camera sellers have worked for me, but to be honest many of the Japanese camera sellers are starting to look sketchy to me.

Using the above rules, I have done well.

All good reasons to avoid eBay for photographic equipment.

BrianShaw · Jan 29, 2021

Old Gregg said:
None of them bid anyway, removing any incentive for me in the future to waste time responding.

That is pathetic (them, not you) and doesn’t surprise me. Too often I’ve seen forum jerks messing with sellers yet they have absolutely no skin in the game.

BradS · Jan 29, 2021

If a seller claims recent service,CLA, etc I’ll ask for evidence, like a receipt. If none is provided then I assume it was a destroy-it-yourself attempt and move on. I really appreciate sellers that do have gear serviced by a competent professional prior to selling it and who provide evidence.

Sirius Glass · Jan 29, 2021

BradS said:
If a seller claims recent service,CLA, etc I’ll ask for evidence, like a receipt. If none is provided then I assume it was a destroy-it-yourself attempt and move on. I really appreciate sellers that do have gear serviced by a competent professional prior to selling it and who provide evidence.

I agree.

jeffreyg · Jan 29, 2021

My experience with the only "preowned" purchases have been for a couple of Hasselblad lenses. They were local and I brought my camera body and a couple of rolls of film. I was able to expose the film at different settings, went home and developed the film and all was good so I bought them. They have worked just fine for a number of years. So if you can find a local seller you might take that approach.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

http://www.sculptureandphotography.com/

campy51 · Jan 29, 2021

Kodachromeguy said:
I think you have a dilemma with three paths or outcomes:

1. Buy a camera/lens where the seller claims to have cleaned/repaired it and trust that he really did it.
2. Buy an item that is supposed to be fully functional but assume that you will eventually (or soon) need to send it off for repair at your cost. In this case, you can trust the result, but it costs money out of your pocket as well as weeks or months waiting.
3. But an item sold as non-functional or for parts only, and then gamble that it can be repaired. The issue: is it cheap enough to make this gamble? Is it truly dead forever? Do you want to spend the cost and effort of sending it off only to be told that it cannot be repaired?

The terms "MINT" or "REFURBISHED" mean absolutely nothing. The details are what count. I have found that US sellers are the most lazy (or is it stupid?) with respect to photographs, descriptions, and even the most basic checks, such as opening the battery compartment of a used camera.

I have done number 3 a few times. I bought a Rolleiflex 2.8E with planar lens in excellent cosmetic condition but has lens separation. The seller described it as about 1/8 of an inch 3/4 the way around the outer edge. I took a chance and it performs great, the glass is very clean without coating damage and shutter, focusing and winding are all good. Saved about $400 over one with no separation but with coating damage or user grade condition.

BrianShaw · Jan 29, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
I agree.

... and in that situation one has to be willing to pay the premium price. Fully overhauled vintage cameras tend to be somewhat costly.

Chan Tran · Jan 29, 2021

Just disassemble and reassemble a camera takes a lot of work. For a professional to spend the time on a camera like would be quite expensive. So if the truly good work is done the cost would be higher than a camera without CLA that is still fully functioning. So I do not believe people on Ebay when they said overhaul or CLA.

Alan Gales · Jan 29, 2021

BradS said:
If a seller claims recent service,CLA, etc I’ll ask for evidence, like a receipt. If none is provided then I assume it was a destroy-it-yourself attempt and move on. I really appreciate sellers that do have gear serviced by a competent professional prior to selling it and who provide evidence.

I agree. They need to show you a receipt and mail it to you along with the item if you buy it. I've seen eBay sales with a photograph of the CLA or repair receipt along with photo's of the item.

I would never CLA a camera or lens before selling it. It's just not profitable. On the other hand, a few do have an item CLA'd or repaired before they sell it. Usually, they were planning on keeping it when CLA'd but later decided to sell for some reason.

Sirius Glass · Jan 29, 2021

How may who sell cameras on eBay have any idea what a CLA is or entails?

Alan Gales · Jan 29, 2021

BrianShaw said:
... and in that situation one has to be willing to pay the premium price. Fully overhauled vintage cameras tend to be somewhat costly.

Yes, you've got that right!

Unfortunately, from what I have seen, most people want it cheap and are not willing to pay the premium price.

The issue with 'freshly CLAd' cameras on the popular auction site

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