The Irrelevance of Beauty

DrPablo · Apr 9, 2007

ilya1963 said:
Lets pretend that the beauty of music was replaced by a beauty of human body and we replaced Bell by a beautifull model, how would it have changed the results , would you still have to be in front of Metropolitan to be appreciated? Why is that not IRRELEVANT? Why would you have a crowd then? Is it because avarges have been lowered?

Am I off the topic here?

Well, I think for the average person, the immediate reaction to a beautiful model is more carnal than anything else. So more attention would have been garnered simply by virtue of that fact. Secondly, vision is inherently different than hearing. It's a lot harder to differentiate one specific sound from lots of background noise than it is to differentiate one beautiful face or body from a crowd of busy people.

copake_ham · Apr 9, 2007

ilya1963 said:
Did Bach ever think of his work beeing played in the subway?

Yes this experiment is too abstract ,but that is the whole point- it is to see if The Beauty is Relevant and universal (that is why it's the best of the instrument and the artist)

Lets pretend that the beauty of music was replaced by a beauty of human body and we replaced Bell by a beautifull model, how would it have changed the results , would you still have to be in front of Metropolitan to be appreciated? Why is that not IRRELEVANT? Why would you have a crowd then? Is it because avarges have been lowered?

Am I off the topic here?

It's hard to answer this one. Living in NYC I find that beautiful models are as common as pigeons!

jstraw · Apr 9, 2007

copake_ham said:
It's hard to answer this one. Living in NYC I find that beautiful models are as common as pigeons!

And just about as....

Nope, Not gonna go there...

removed account4 · Apr 9, 2007

thanks for the link david
reminds me of when i lived
in boston, and the streets and subways
were full of musicians, some good, some better
and some were professionals just having a good time.

i have a cousin who used to regularly play in harvard square ---
from what i remember, it was more to have a good time - the spare change
was good, but people are generally rushed, especially nowadays, too rushed
to hang out and stay for "the whole set" ...

didn't laurie anderson used to freeze her feet and ice skates in a block of ice
and play the violin until the ice melted ?

that would have been a fun thing to watch ..

Sparky · Apr 9, 2007

I dunno - after thinking about it awhile - I think it's sort of a stupid experiment. It was interesting to learn what I did. But let's face it - people - especially in big urban megalopoli - have trained themselves to ignore 'street musicians', regardless of level of talent. They're just not receptive about it. If anything - it tells us a little something about the mechanisms through which commuters 'filter'...

just my two bits.

Ed Sukach · Apr 9, 2007

Interesting that so many of the children seemed to appreciate the "genius" being displayed here - and tragic that so many of the "hardened adults" were so insensitive.

Reinforces my decision of, "To SEE through the eyes of a child."

gr82bart · Apr 10, 2007

ilya1963 said:
Lets pretend that the beauty of music was replaced by a beauty of human body and we replaced Bell by a beautifull model, how would it have changed the results , would you still have to be in front of Metropolitan to be appreciated? Why is that not IRRELEVANT? Why would you have a crowd then? Is it because avarges have been lowered?

Just go to the APUG galleries for this one. I know that if I post any one of my images of one of my models (good or bad), I get far more views and comments than any other image (mine or otherwise). Images that I think are very worthy of attention - they get little to none.

Am I off the topic here?

Not at all. Todays world is one of specific and instant gratification. We have been programmed to enjoy and recognize popular, mass produced, market driven beauty. That's all.

Back to my assertion - let them eat cake. More pate for me to enjoy.

Regards, Art.

ilya1963 · Apr 10, 2007

"It's hard to answer this one. Living in NYC I find that beautiful models are as common as pigeons! " George
______
Have you learned to ingnore them yet George? -ILYA
________
"didn't laurie anderson used to freeze her feet and ice skates in a block of ice
and play the violin until the ice melted ?
that would have been a fun thing to watch .." -JOHN
________

That's funny John, I mean may be at a gallery showing there should be a live nude in a middle of the floor and maybe then we could have some turn out- ILYA
__________________________________________________________

"More pate for me to enjoy" - ART

_______
Art , I think you touched on something here ...

Andy Warhol is known to ask a gallery what sells before he went on and did a piece of work

If Bell's thing was to stop as many people as he could and he knew what it would have taken , in other words do a market research , would he bring a nude with him? I am beeing rhetorical , but if you think about it at one point or another if what you are doing fullfills you but does not feed you do you change
If someone buys your print would you make one like it again
When Michael Kenna says he is beeing doing his "look" for 30 years, is he realy saying that he found a niche and staying with it
I correlate photography with prospecting for gold , once in a while you fund a nugget , but most of the time it's just rocks , you can improve rocks by polishing them , but they realy do not sutisfy you

So who should I sutisfy ?

We are floored today by the amount of money vintage prints fetch , but is that a true massure of success for an artist that got a fraction of nothing for the print when it was made, I always think of EW sitting in his chair overlooking Pacific with not much but 200 in his pocket when he died, was he fullfilled?

Did Bell walk away from that station thinking he played well that morning?
I think satisfaction for an artist is got to be in doing ...

Well sorry for the rant... It happens once in a while when something provokes a thought...

ILYA

Dave Wooten · Apr 10, 2007

Dave in NYC,

Thanks for the heads up on the WP article!

Dave in Vegas

Bob F. · Apr 10, 2007

Seems to me that by choosing the venue and time that they did, they deliberately setup the good people of Washington to "fail". As others wrote, do the same thing in the evening rush-hour and I am sure you would see a marked difference in people's responses.

In short, a put-up job designed to achieve a preordained result. Proving no more than that the workers of Washington are in a hurry to get to work in the mornings. Tabloid journalism masquerading as social experiment.

Cheers, Bob.

Katharine Thayer · Apr 10, 2007

I've got to agree with Bob here.

The Kant scholar quoted in the original article was right when he said that you can't draw any conclusions whatever from the exercise, but I'm not sure why the writer felt it necessary to invoke Kant for that observation; all that's needed is some basic critical thinking skills. This sensational little "experiment" doesn't pass muster as an experiment, and proves nothing.
Katharine Thayer

Bob F. said:
Seems to me that by choosing the venue and time that they did, they deliberately setup the good people of Washington to "fail". As others wrote, do the same thing in the evening rush-hour and I am sure you would see a marked difference in people's responses.

In short, a put-up job designed to achieve a preordained result. Proving no more than that the workers of Washington are in a hurry to get to work in the mornings. Tabloid journalism masquerading as social experiment.

Cheers, Bob.

ilya1963 · Apr 10, 2007

"Tabloid journalism masquerading as social experiment. "

Perfect!!!

Ed Sukach · Apr 10, 2007

Oh, lighten up, guys. No intense secrets were exposed, no great scientific revelations...

But yet, enjoyable to watch, and in some measure a commentary on the character of modern-day human beings.

To me, worth watching and thinking about.

DBP · Apr 10, 2007

Katharine Thayer said:
I've got to agree with Bob here.

The Kant scholar quoted in the original article was right when he said that you can't draw any conclusions whatever from the exercise, but I'm not sure why the writer felt it necessary to invoke Kant for that observation; all that's needed is some basic critical thinking skills. This sensational little "experiment" doesn't pass muster as an experiment, and proves nothing.
Katharine Thayer

I think expecting critical thinking skills from a newspaper features writer is sadly overoptimistic.

DrPablo · Apr 10, 2007

DBP said:
I think expecting critical thinking skills from a newspaper features writer is sadly overoptimistic.

Well, critical thinking skills are one thing, well-designed science is something else. I'm sure an academic sociologist could put together a scientifically meticulous study of this question, but that's beyond the scope of a story like this one. Incidentally, as we constantly remind ourselves in medicine, statistical significance does not necessarily mean clinical significance -- so a scientifically and statistically valid finding still does not mean that the findings have any pertinence or applicability.

Katharine Thayer · Apr 11, 2007

DBP said:
I think expecting critical thinking skills from a newspaper features writer is sadly overoptimistic.

But at least the features writer did feel compelled to include a quote from the scholar who said that no conclusions could be drawn from the experiment, which suggests at least some critical thinking skills, although obviously a decision was made to downplay that sensible comment and emphasize the "tabloid journalism as social experiment" aspect of the piece. But some critical thinking should also be exercised by readers.

I read through a few of the comments on the Washington Post site; most of them were of the kneejerk "Oh how awful those Philistines didn't recognize genius!" type that the article was obviously intended to evoke, but the most useful and sensible of the comments I saw went something like this: "The people didn't stop because they had somewhere to go. I'm homeless and have nowhere to go, so I listen to street musicians a lot." I think that about sums it up.

jstraw · Apr 11, 2007

The article is a better litmus test for an experiment about critical thinking than the original exersize was, as an experiment in the relevance of beauty!

Dave Wooten · Apr 11, 2007

Katharine,

IMNSHO, you have hit the nail on the head.

c6h6o3 · Apr 13, 2007

David H. Bebbington said:
This incident in no way proves that the majority of the public is Philistine, selfish and uncultured!

You're right. Working every day in Washington, DC proves it.

CraigK · Apr 13, 2007

Is is just me or did the choice of music really suck? While there are some lovely passages in the piece, Chaccone has always seemed to me like the classical music equivalent of Lynard Skynard's "Free Bird". 14 minutes of squeeling anguish would have me heading for the platform asap as well.

SAShruby · Apr 13, 2007

What I took from this article is:

No matter who you are, what you are, what you have and what you can do, if you do not present yourself and what you can do in the right time, right place to right people, you're nobody.

A one more thing...All technicalities written in this thead is a dry discussion about non important aspect of the study.

Last comment...Comparing playing music in the Metro to picture hanging on the airport is completely incompatible, because music is a dynamic presentation, it caries in the space to you, pictures does not carry vision to you you have to search for it. I hope I making some sense what I'm trying to explain.

Cheers,

Roger Hicks · Apr 14, 2007

SAShruby said:
Last comment...Comparing playing music in the Metro to picture hanging on the airport is completely incompatible, because music is a dynamic presentation, it caries in the space to you, pictures does not carry vision to you you have to search for it. I hope I making some sense what I'm trying to explain.

Dear Peter,

An interesting argument, because it illustrates very clearly how perception and appreciation vary. I'd say almost the exact opposite: a picture communicates immediately, because I tend to be more aware of my visual surroundings than my sound surroundings, whereas music (for me) has to be listened to deliberately. I really dislike background music; I can't work if there's music playing unless I can ignore it completely (so I'm pretty good at ignoring most kinds of music).

Of course I can ignore many pictures and of course a piece of music can grab my attention, but the above generalization holds good for me.

Cheers,

R.

eddym · Apr 14, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
An interesting argument, because it illustrates very clearly how perception and appreciation vary. I'd say almost the exact opposite: a picture communicates immediately, because I tend to be more aware of my visual surroundings than my sound surroundings, whereas music (for me) has to be listened to deliberately. I really dislike background music; I can't work if there's music playing unless I can ignore it completely (so I'm pretty good at ignoring most kinds of music).

That's why I can't have music playing in my darkroom. I have tried it, and found myself forgetting to agitate film, move prints to the next tray, or any number of faux pas, because I was too caught up in Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.

ilya1963 · Apr 14, 2007

That's why I can't have music playing in my darkroom. I have tried it, and found myself forgetting to agitate film, move prints to the next tray, or any number of faux pas, because I was too caught up in Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.-eddym

_______________
Interesting,
I ,on the other hand, get very much in the rithm/mood with music when working in the dark room ...

Roger Hicks · Apr 14, 2007

eddym said:
That's why I can't have music playing in my darkroom. I have tried it, and found myself forgetting to agitate film, move prints to the next tray, or any number of faux pas, because I was too caught up in Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.

Dear Eddy,

YES!

R.

The Irrelevance of Beauty

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