The Heroine of Robert Doisneau

[arigram]

I found this photo on the news agency I get my pictures for the newspaper from and I thought it was cute.
It reads:
"Francoise Bornet, the heroine of the mythical photography 'The Kiss' by Robert Doisneau, holds the original print she has decided to separate from,Wednesday 06 April 2005. The photographer sent the photograph to her carrying his own seal on the back, in 1950, a few days after the shoot. This legendary photograph will be sold by Artcurial Briest Poulain Fur on next 25 April at Hotel Dassault, in Paris. It is estimated to be sold at between 15,000 and 20,000 Euro. EPA/CHAMUSSY/SIPA FRANCE OUT "

(the image has been scaled down and reduced in size)

 

[argentic]

I found this photo on the news agency I get my pictures for the newspaper from and I thought it was cute.
It reads:
"Francoise Bornet, the heroine of the mythical photography 'The Kiss' by Robert Doisneau, holds the original print she has decided to separate from,Wednesday 06 April 2005. The photographer sent the photograph to her carrying his own seal on the back, in 1950, a few days after the shoot. This legendary photograph will be sold by Artcurial Briest Poulain Fur on next 25 April at Hotel Dassault, in Paris. It is estimated to be sold at between 15,000 and 20,000 Euro. EPA/CHAMUSSY/SIPA FRANCE OUT "

(the image has been scaled down and reduced in size)

This is the same lady that dragged Doisneau to court 40 years after this photograph had been taken, because apparently Doisneau had not payed her for the shoot. During 40 years everyone in France knew this photograph. But suddenly she had a problem with the shoot (which was staged, and thus at the time she knew perfecty well what she did). All this happened not long before Doisneau's died.

Haven't you noticed the dollar signs in her eyes?

This "lady" makes me puke.

 

[rbarker]

Although the court records from the lawsuit probably have most of the details of whatever contract existed between them, Doisneau probably could have avoided the problem altogether had he chosen to previously share some small part of any profits (aside from fame) with her. Models often feel cheated when they do shoots "for free" and later find the photographer has profited nicely from an image. Photographers who do the "right thing" for their models, even when not contractually obligated to do so, profit even more through enhanced reputation, I think.

 

[geraldatwork]

It's hard, for me at least, to come to any conclusions with out knowing what actually happened or was said between the parties from the very day the photograph was taken to later on. At least she is getting some money but had to wait 60 years. Maybe there is some justice there.

 

[argentic]

It's hard, for me at least, to come to any conclusions with out knowing what actually happened or was said between the parties from the very day the photograph was taken to later on. At least she is getting some money but had to wait 60 years. Maybe there is some justice there.

AFAIK the couple convened with the photographer that they got a print in return for their modeling. Which they did. So, Doisneau held his part of the deal. He has made hundreds of thousands of photographs in his life. Some were very succesfull, most weren't. Does the fact that this photograph has been published all over the world, give the models more rights than the ones convened at the shoot? Doisneau was a very very amiable man. Not a crook or a slick businessman at all.

This whole affair poses an important question. How can any photographer survive, when 40 years after a shoot models claim large amounts of money which were not convened in the initial contract, for every photograph that sells well?

 

[arigram]

Ha!
That I did not know!
If I did I wouldn't have bothered to even look at the photo...

 

[rjr]

Gilbert,

I just reread the story in Koetzle´s "Photo Icons II". Denise and Jean-Louis Laverne sued Doisneau in 1988, they claimed to be that couple and asked for 160000DM compensation. Doisneau confessed that many of his pictures were staged, having used actors in that Life assignment - but that couple couldn´t proof to be the one on the image. The trial ended in favour of Doisneau.

Only then Cartaud and Bornet came out and sued him for 100000 Franc - Bornet had this signed print she received then in place of a payment. Doisneau was able to proof he had compensated the two sufficiently and their claim was put off, Doisneau hadn´t to pay them again.

The only loss was the "scent of truth" - he finally confirmed that all his pictures showing couples and lovers on the streets of Paris in 1950 were staged.

 

[Claire Senft]

very interesting

This is an interesting thread. It points out the good sense of getting a model release. Of course that would not necessarily stop a lawsuit.

I do little work with models but I believe that the photographer should have an appreciation for the model's contribution.

 

[Joe Symchyshyn]

I do little work with models but I believe that the photographer should have an appreciation for the model's contribution.

I think that photographers DO have an appreciation for the contributions made by models... But for models to come back later and demand money because the photographer made some money from the image (when the photographer meti the original obligation for fees or prints...) is just in poor taste to me.

joe

 

[John Koehrer]

15-20K is a mighty good return for storing that photograph for 50 yrs.

 

[haris]

AFAIK the couple convened with the photographer that they got a print in return for their modeling. Which they did. So, Doisneau held his part of the deal.

And this is even law in my country. That law saying something like: "If model get from photographer some kind of rewarding(payement) for modeling, with receiving that "payement" models give permission to photographer for using photographs from that session in commercial use, even without written permission. And that "payement" does not have to be money. It can be prints or something else. So, if model wants to be payed for modeling with money in my country, she or he should not take prints from that session, or anything else. If model take, for example prints, it is considered in that case that model is payed for that modeling.

 

[argentic]

Only then Cartaud and Bornet came out and sued him for 100000 Franc - Bornet had this signed print she received then in place of a payment. Doisneau was able to proof he had compensated the two sufficiently and their claim was put off, Doisneau hadn´t to pay them again.

Which exactly proves my point. This greedy "lady" which poses so nicely with "her" print makes me puke.

 

[rjr]

*Newsflash*

;-)

The print sold some hours ago at 155 000 EUR (plus some 30k EUR of taxes!) to a swiss individual - starting bid was 10 000 EUR, the auction house Artcurial Briest Pulain le Fur estimated a final bid of 15 - 20 000EUR.

http://www.auction.fr/fr/base/lot.php?vente=7682&etude=6&passe=1&lot=109

 

[titrisol]

Does this mean all that "Paris city of love" is a hoax :?

I guess it helped France to receive billions of coins from tourists looking for love....

Gilbert,

I just reread the story in Koetzle´s "Photo Icons II". Denise and Jean-Louis Laverne sued Doisneau in 1988, they claimed to be that couple and asked for 160000DM compensation. Doisneau confessed that many of his pictures were staged, having used actors in that Life assignment - but that couple couldn´t proof to be the one on the image. The trial ended in favour of Doisneau.

Only then Cartaud and Bornet came out and sued him for 100000 Franc - Bornet had this signed print she received then in place of a payment. Doisneau was able to proof he had compensated the two sufficiently and their claim was put off, Doisneau hadn´t to pay them again.

The only loss was the "scent of truth" - he finally confirmed that all his pictures showing couples and lovers on the streets of Paris in 1950 were staged.

 

[argentic]

Does this mean all that "Paris city of love" is a hoax :?

I guess it helped France to receive billions of coins from tourists looking for love....

No it doesn't. I met a french girl in Paris in 1993, and we have been happily married ever since.

She even got me to move back to France a decade later, and start a business in photography courses in one of the most beautiful regions overhere. I can assure you that France (and Paris) is still a country of love ande romance.

 

[raucousimages]

A photographer takes thousands of images and if small few make some money models come running wanting their share even if they have been paid for the origionl shoot. Tell me if you can find a model who is willing to share in the financial burden of producing and marketing all of the other images that don't sell.