the great schism of photography

[Dali]

That's a fascinating observation.

If I could make a wish, I'd wish that really there is a huge number of photographers asking technical questions because they are interested in advancing the state of their art.

Not sure it is fascinating... Look at the internet photo sites and the few remaining magazines and ask yourself if they were still be alive without the "support" of all these photographers anxious about their praxis.

 

[removed account4]

HEY how did this become a magic bullet thread ! ?

 

[Dali]

That's what I'm getting at. The natural progression is to search for the magic bullet, until you discover it doesn't exist. Then, you simplify things, but the technical knowledge you've acquired is still there, and still plays a part. More internal, maybe, but integral to whatever you want to express.

No, my state of mind changed when I discovered that the technical aspect is not the alpha and omega of photography. Too, analog photography principles are not that complex they justify to spend too much time about them. What is difficult is to go one step beyond and to find your own creativity.

 

[benjiboy]

No, my state of mind changed when I discovered that the technical aspect is not the alpha and omega of photography. Too, analog photography principles are not that complex they justify to spend too much time about them. What is difficult is to go one step beyond and to find your own creativity.

On reading your recent post on this thread Dali I think you are a very wise man.

 

[removed account4]

On reading your recent post on this thread Dali I think you are a very wise man.

+1

 

[eddie]

No, my state of mind changed when I discovered that the technical aspect is not the alpha and omega of photography. Too, analog photography principles are not that complex they justify to spend too much time about them. What is difficult is to go one step beyond and to find your own creativity.

I agree. Maybe I didn't explain myself well, if everyone thinks that I think the technical is the be-all, end-all. I think creativity is. In my case, I've been making photos without a camera/lens lately. They are completely imagined, and (usually) have no basis in reality. Still, my early training was technical, and I'm not sure I ever would have ended up here, if I hadn't been there.

 

[removed account4]

I agree. Maybe I didn't explain myself well, if everyone thinks that I think the technical is the be-all, end-all. I think creativity is. In my case, I've been making photos without a camera/lens lately. They are completely imagined, and (usually) have no basis in reality. Still, my early training was technical, and I'm not sure I ever would have ended up here, if I hadn't been there.

eddie
you can correct me if i am wrong but you are using your technical skills and taking leap to create something

... what i see is that a lot of people who i run across, who are honing their technical skills, ...and hone their technical skills ..
they don't use them to foster creativity ( maybe they are? )

maybe that is the schism, using the technical to make something creative ?

i don't know anymore, and i have come to the realization it doesn't matter, its all good if you are having a good time -
whether making chemograms, bromoils or film sensitometry/densitometry tests to figure out how personal iso
and how much base fog is in their brand new film.

 

[eddie]

I'm really not sure, John. There's a dichotomy to film photography, in that it's a combination of art and science. Some people will lean one way, while others will lean in the opposite direction. In my case, my initial education led me to getting a grip on the technical end. It was only when that was achieved that I could put it in the background, and aspire to more from my imagination (and images). I know you're familiar with what I've been doing for the last few years, so you know it has very little to do with the technical. I'm just not sure I would have come to the new work without the previous experiences. Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing...

 

[gzinsel]

admittedly there is, . . . however my point is that the group I hang around with, ( maybe thats my problem) . .. . is ALWAYS more interested in the ideas I am pursuing, not the "nitty gritty" how to. . . .. f/64, C.I. of 1.30, with a reflectance c.i. of . . . . . $%?&^.... bla, bla. while I always tip my hat to those use very precise technology to make art, ART over all is about so much more than technical, How to. . .

I get the impression from time to time, particularly here at Apug, that ideas are not so much talked about.. . . ( thats o.k. by me) it just leaves me with the ( correct, or incorrect assumptions) about why people in the first [place ] make photographs. If it isn't the idea that is leading you, then one must assume that the technical is leading the way, or at least setting artificial boundaries! I understand by what you mean by chicken and egg analogy, it holds true, yet I am still convinced that there is a schism in the photo/art world. It primarily is concentrated on the performance/execution crowd and the conceptual/feeling crowd.

when I was in art school we could talk a long time about blur ( the entire image) blather on and on. . . . . and on. sitting across from me were people who just be besides themselves, rolling in their graves, so to speak, because the print Sucked!!!!!!!!!!! ( not sharp, no contrast, uneven, fixer stains, specs of dust, printed on R.C. the list would go on . But, ,. ,, ,, , in terms of image, if you let go of the rules. . . this types of works, did have impact. and still do.

 

[eddie]

But, ,. ,, ,, , in terms of image, if you let go of the rules. . . this types of works, did have impact. and still do.

Well, photography (as a science) is subject to the rules of Physics. As such, "the rules" can't be entirely dismissed. I equate trying to make photographs without some technical knowledge to trying to express complex thoughts in a language in which you only know 100 words.

 

[pdeeh]

There is the significant difference that one cannot choose to ignore the laws of physics

 

[gzinsel]

well, depending what you consider- "necessary and sufficient" ( the parameters) of the definition of technical knowledge? there is a vast array of people working under the same topic( technical knowledge) and yet their personal definitions are wildly apart. Again, as example. I could be that person who is auto everything and P&S, considering myself having technical knowledge, I also could that person who makes his own film, optics, and camera, sets up elaborate shots with lighting, and yet "that person" may say, I am really not that technically gifted!! You could also go on to say, that some photographers who, in the past, say . . . . used an xs70 polaroid, could make beautiful art and images worth a 1,000,000 words. just by pressing the button, Just because you physics and chemistry does not mean you know how to make art! the painful truth is. . . . you do not need to know anything about physics or chemistry to make photography or art. & THAT gets the hairs on the backs movin' cause its so flies in the face of what many of us think photography is!

 

[eddie]

What's "necessary and sufficient" will be different for each person. But, if you don't have the knowledge necessary to translate your ideas to a sheet of paper, you're undermining your ability to create the art you envision. It's entirely possible to stumble into a photographic work of art, without any technical knowledge. However, understanding a bit of the technical possibilities/limitations will help bring your artistic goals to fruition, and on a consistent basis.

 

[removed account4]

What's "necessary and sufficient" will be different for each person. But, if you don't have the knowledge necessary to translate your ideas to a sheet of paper, you're undermining your ability to create the art you envision. It's entirely possible to stumble into a photographic work of art, without any technical knowledge. However, understanding a bit of the technical possibilities/limitations will help bring your artistic goals to fruition, and on a consistent basis.

hi eddie

i have taught cyanotype workshops at public school art classes for a few years to grades 4-6
they had no technical knowledge about anything. they were given the prompt to put stuff on the paper so it wouldn't
fly away and to make interesting shapes / composition ...
no knowledge of how cyanotype paper works at all ..
after their paper changed color and was ready, i washed them and they dried ..
and some of the images made were some of the most beautiful photograms i have ever seen.

enough technical knowledge can be no knowledge at all.
i have mentioned my old roommate before .. his boss had no idea how to even use a camera
and her work is celebrated by some ..
sometimes the devil is in the details, we love ot know how things work so we can master them but we get bogged down
in the nitty gritty and the details end up mastering us seeing often times it becomes a rabbit hole, or its like peeling an onion
with no end in sight.

i have mastered enough that i don't need to worry about how to focus or what fstop to use or when to turn the lights on when i am developing film or prints ...
and until i run into more problems, i won't bother being bogged down by details ..
but that is the way i work, others work in a different vein .. and that's ok too

 

[eddie]

enough technical knowledge can be no knowledge at all.

Those with no knowledge at all are relying on luck.

I haven't used a densitometer since college, don't run detailed tests, don't worry about film/paper curves either. But I do know the difference developing a sheet of film 3 minutes, 15 minutes, or 2 hours will have on the sheet of film. I know how to use the information a meter gives me. I need to use the knowledge I've acquired to further my artistic aims. The goal should be to make the knowledge innate, and have it perform behind the scene, so you can concentrate on creating the piece you intend to create.

 

[removed account4]

hi eddie

i agree with you 100%
i was just pointing out an extreme situation where
there was no knowledge at all, and it worked well ..
kids are pretty intuitive adults less so i think,
they have been told to bury that creative intuition at an early age
.. wasn't it picasso that said that he was just trying to draw like a child again ?

 

[eddie]

Wasn't it Einstein who said, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So is a lot."?
Although I know he wasn't referring to photography, for what I'm trying to accomplish, with my images, the quote rings true. I want to know enough to translate my ideas to paper, but not so much that I'm afraid to experiment.

 

[removed account4]

Wasn't it Einstein who said, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So is a lot."?
Although I know he wasn't referring to photography, for what I'm trying to accomplish, with my images, the quote rings true. I want to know enough to translate my ideas to paper, but not so much that I'm afraid to experiment.

me too !

 

[Vaughn]

Those with no knowledge at all are relying on luck...

Or on someone else with the knowledge to do the processing/printing as in the kids doing cyanotypes.

 

[blansky]

I always find the digital vs analog threads interesting, boring, funny, and sprinkled with wit and of course madness.

It always reminds me of the fact that during WWII while the Allies and the Germans were slaughtering each other by day, at night when they were able to hunker down to rest, the favorite song both sides loved to hear on the radio was Lili Marleen.

So much in common, yet unable stop killing each other.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I find the digital versus analog threads thread boring with bursts of mind numbing periods.

 

[removed account4]

Or on someone else with the knowledge to do the processing/printing as in the kids doing cyanotypes.

hi vaughn
running water on the prints, i wouldn't say required any skill at all,
i would have had them do it, but i didn't want them to deal with potential toxic chemistry ...

 

[Tamara]

I always find the digital vs analog threads interesting, boring, funny, and sprinkled with wit and of course madness.

It always reminds me of the fact that during WWII while the Allies and the Germans were slaughtering each other by day, at night when they were able to hunker down to rest, the favorite song both sides loved to hear on the radio was Lili Marleen.

So much in common, yet unable stop killing each other.

On a semi-related note, when I bought my first e-reader a couple years ago, teams of ninjas swarmed into my house and seized all my thousands of printed books and burned them in the yard, then warned me of the terrible things they would do if I ever bought another.

Digital or analog: You must choose. They are not tools, they are tribes to which one must swear terrible oaths of fealty. True fact.

 

[removed account4]

On a semi-related note, when I bought my first e-reader a couple years ago, teams of ninjas swarmed into my house and seized all my thousands of printed books and burned them in the yard, then warned me of the terrible things they would do if I ever bought another.

Digital or analog: You must choose. They are not tools, they are tribes to which one must swear terrible oaths of fealty. True fact.

I'm on a fence
I like and use both
not sure if I am committing treason
but I am sure someone thinks I am doing just that

not sure how a technique thread became a d v. a thread .. there wasn't
one electric word uttered ... this is a t v c thread ... or so it seems

 

[Roger Cole]

Toxic, bah. The #%$%ing WORLD is toxic. Teach responsibility and we wouldn't have to worry about it. I started doing darkroom work when I was nine years old while my bemused but supportive parents scratched their heads as a I blacked out the bathroom. I don't know about cyanotype in particular, and some alternative processes DO involve materials that are more hazardous to handle (hazardous, not "dangerous" - hazards can be managed) than regular black and white darkroom work, but anyone old enough to read the labels is old enough to handle regular black and white darkroom materials responsibly. An individual may not be responsible enough, but teach them well and most will be. I was.