I have no particular insight into what the younger generation is doing or thinking, but I suspect that most people on this thread don't know either. I don't use Instagram, but I'm GenX, so I guess that's not a useful data point. But my 100% biased gut feeling is that even people who use Instagram all the time would still enjoy and prefer physical photos that they can touch and even hang on the wall.It's not. The younger generation shoots film, then scans film, or has it scanned. They don't need paper. You can't post paper on Instagram.
Sad world....
I tend to agree more with @koraks here. The overwhelming majority of folks I know who shoot film only end up with scans. Hell, I have a darkroom and even I only print a tiny fraction of the stuff I shoot.
IR film has always been a niche within a niche. Back when it was plentiful, and you could get it for $15 a roll, no one shot it. People didn’t used to like the look. The only reason that people like the look now is because some folks with super big followings shot some of it, and decided that they really liked it, so everyone else decided to jump on the bandwagon. Yes, the film is very expensive now, but that’s only because there’s so little of it left and the people that want to shoot it are hoarding it. When Kodak and Konica stopped making IR film, that was the death of IR film. it’s not coming back. As much as I hate to be that guy, it’s just the truth. The die sensitizers go for hundreds per milligram now because no one uses them on a large scale. That stopped with the film. And to make a new emulsion? You’re going to need at least tens, possibly hundreds of grams of it for R&D. If you ordered 100 g of it would the price go down? Sure, but you’re still going to be paying a whole lot for something that might not even pan out, and even if it does, it’s not going to have mass market appeal.
The only gap I can think of in Ilford's B&W is a technical film, but that's niche and currently covered by Adox.
If you listen to what's said in the interview, it becomes clear that there's no real product development going on in that area. There's R&D occurring to replace materials that become unavailable and to bring down cost. So they evolve, yes, but not in a meaningful functional way.Is there still a certain amount of R&S going into Ilford' s established product line?
It's not a viable business plan for a firm like Harman to await the much-hoped/anticipated Second Coming. We can philosophize all we want about the 'true nature' of things, but fact of the matter is that silver gel printing is a small niche, the product is relatively expensive to make and the remaining few manufacturers seem to have been running at rock bottom margins for several decades now. There's no plausible reason that's going to drive the hordes back into dimly lit caves to breathe wafts of acetic acid.I think most people that appreciate the beauty of analog sooner or later have an interest in darkroom prints.
If you listen to what's said in the interview, it becomes clear that there's no real product development going on in that area. There's R&D occurring to replace materials that become unavailable and to bring down cost. So they evolve, yes, but not in a meaningful functional way.
there's no real product development going on in that area.
That's a questionable reading.
What he basically says is that the amount of R&D going into B&W is really small. This is in a relative sense to their own R&D effort, and as noted above, the absolute R&D investment of Harman is small to begin with, so we're looking at really, really small investments in B&W. Much of the answer is about bringing existing emulsions into sheet film format (to answer the question asked by the interviewer) and besides the recent introduction of K200, no actual development of brand new products is mentioned, hinted at, promised, foreseen etc. When the answer starts to go in the direction of B&W R&D in general, it basically cust short in the observation that they're really focusing on color.Q: What is to be expected on the B&W side and specifically LF
A: In terms of new B&W products we have just launched Kentmere 200, so Kentmere is our I say more affordable value range.
They're made through the same high-quality process as any Ilford film is made. And I think that's probably the best value films out there on the market.
In terms of B&W films in general, we now havel 12. Three Kentmere, 9 Ilford. So we conver most of the differen characteristics you can get from black and white film.
And sheet film we've got four different sheet films. So that is something we have looked at, to see if we can start introducing some of our other emulsions as sheet film.
We get asked all the time for PanF+. We've been asked for SFX, Delta3200. So all of these other films people want. We just need to see if we can do it in a cost-effective way.
We don't want to bring products to market that price people out of being able to afford it. So we have to do it in a way that we can do it cost effectively, essentially. It's always a challenge to do that where it's potentially more niche than something else.
Black and white is something that's still very important to us. But a lot of our R&D is going into color.
So what are the counter-examples? The ones you gave pretty much prove my point
- product life cycles that span 30+ years and when a new version is introduced, it's such a marginal change that most won't even notice it.
What he basically says is that the amount of R&D going into B&W is really small... When the answer starts to go in the direction of B&W R&D in general, it basically cust short in the observation that they're really focusing on color.
I don't see how anyone could read into this that there's something major happening in the B&W domain. There isn't. It's mature, it covers all the bases and other than keeping it alive, there's really no impetus to change much about it.
So there's some factual information to be had about Harman's situation based on public reports: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/05227615/filing-history
The general trend is that film sales have been increasing year over year. Sales held steady from 2019-2020 and have gained 63% as of Dec 2023 (last available report).
On the flip side, their paper products saw a 47% reduction in sales from 2019-2020 and have only just recovered to 2019 numbers by the end of 2023. Going back to the 2018 report, it was noted that paper sales had increased for the first time in the company's history by 4%, but this was followed by an 8% reduction in sales the following year.
These reports don't provide hard numbers as to how much paper Harman is able to sell but they make it abundantly clear that it isn't and has never in this history of Harman been a market they could grow.
Is there still a certain amount of R&D going into Ilford's established product line?
If I understand correctly HP5+ is the + revision of the fifth iteration of the HP product. I have never used HP3 or HP4, were they much different? Is Ilford actively working on the formula so that there'll be an "Hp6" at some point?
Similarly how about an FP5 or a Delta 400 II?
Not saying I see a need for a revision for these fine products, just curious to know if they'll keep evolving.
If Ilford could update any of their films it's their Delta series particularly Delta 400. It's a joke. Tabular crystal emulsion but it's way grainier than HP5 which is a particular favorite of mine. What's the point?
If you're getting it to be significantly grainier than HP5, you're overexposing it (and possibly processing it wrongly too). Delta technology has a narrower latitude of misuse (for optimal grain/ sharpness) than the older emulsions. It will handle the overexposure just fine (in terms of highlight density control), but overexposure will enhance the release of components that increase sharpness (and control highlight density), hence making grain much more visible. It is very easy to resolve with basic process control.
It's not. The younger generation shoots film, then scans film, or has it scanned. They don't need paper. You can't post paper on Instagram.
If Ilford could update any of their films it's their Delta series particularly Delta 400. It's a joke. Tabular crystal emulsion but it's way grainier than HP5 which is a particular favorite of mine. What's the point?
In such situation I would ask myself what's wrong with my process, not question the material.If Ilford could update any of their films it's their Delta series particularly Delta 400. It's a joke.
The biggest barrier to darkroom printing right now is space. Who in Gen Z and the Millennials has the space for an enlarger etc? And of course there are fewer communal darkrooms around.
I never had this problem with Tmax. Both Delta 100 and 400 are too inherently grainy.
If Ilford could update any of their films it's their Delta series particularly Delta 400. It's a joke. Tabular crystal emulsion but it's way grainier than HP5 which is a particular favorite of mine. What's the point?
Different internal structures that respond to overexposure in different ways - and generally speaking, Ilford's effective shadow speeds are a bit higher than Kodak. The difference is that you can get printable negs from Delta that would have been rendered much harder to print by some versions/ uses of Tmax. I've worked a lot with all the current versions of the emulsions in question, and the differences (if you expose them right) are much smaller than you are claiming. @skahde is spot on.
In such situation I would ask myself what's wrong with my process, not question the material.
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