The Future of Colour and B&W Film with Ilford...

[Milpool]

Lol you’re going to utterly ruin the day for people around here with that opinion, ruiner.

There is one addition Ilford could make to B&W is a true infrared film that is sensitized to around 900nm. Why hasn't anyone done this since Kodak Infrared went belly up? Are the necessary spectral sensitizers just not available? Also, I lament Ilford getting into color film. What's the point in reinventing the wheel in an inferior way? I would assume with all the technical know-how out there, yet they end up with the crazy spectral plots for Phoenix. We probably don't have a whole lot of time left in this analogue game and we don't need extra R&D costs distributed to B&W products.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

There is one addition Ilford could make to B&W is a true infrared film that is sensitized to around 900nm. Why hasn't anyone done this since Kodak Infrared went belly up? Are the necessary spectral sensitizers just not available?

I'd buy that film in bulk...
However - it's a niche within a BW niche - hardly viable economically and Harman is going the viable route with color. More power to them, because there's more of a chance for Harman to gift us a niche-niche film if this color project goes well for them. Hell, maybe E-6 film...

And competition is ALWAYS better for the consumer. Maybe enjoy this aspect on its own?

 

[retina_restoration]

Good grief, there really are some party poopers here.

No kidding. Geez.

 

[tezzasmall]

Great film!! I just love watching video like this. I am always totally amazed at the machines that do everything. It really scrambles my brain trying to imagine how the designers and engineers produces such things.

Hopefully one day I'll go on one of the tours of Ilford myself.

Terry S
UK

 

[blee1996]

There is one addition Ilford could make to B&W is a true infrared film that is sensitized to around 900nm. Why hasn't anyone done this since Kodak Infrared went belly up? Are the necessary spectral sensitizers just not available?

I would also like to have another infrared film, B&W or color, from any manufacturer.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

If Ilford introduced a "true" IR film, similar to HIE, I would be thrilled, but it'll never happen. It could kill SFX. Now, SFX in sheets sizes? That is a possibility.

 

[warden]

What's the point in reinventing the wheel in an inferior way?….crazy spectral plots for Phoenix. … we don't need extra R&D costs distributed to B&W products.

You’re judging Harman’s efforts on their first tries, not the end product. The film will improve as these brilliant people keep refining it. Patience.

As for the “we don’t need extra R&D costs” comment, I can remember well when all R&D of film ceased and films started being discontinued industry wide during the digital revolution, and I can tell you this is better than that.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Kodachrome certainly wasn't perfect when it was first released.

 

[thinkbrown]

Kodachrome certainly wasn't perfect when it was first released.

You wouldn't know that based on people's nostalgia for it

 

[bfilm]

Considering that Kodachrome first came out in 1935-36, I don't think there are too many people around who remember those first rolls of Kodachrome.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Rolls? Them wahr sheet film days. I don't think I've seen anything better than 5x7 sheets of Kodachrome from the early 50's. Amazing color.

 

[bfilm]

Rolls? Them wahr sheet film days. I don't think I've seen anything better than 5x7 sheets of Kodachrome from the early 50's. Amazing color.

"Introduced in 1935, KODACHROME Film became the first commercially successful amateur color film. Initially offered in 16 mm format for motion pictures, formats for 35 mm slides and 8 mm home movies followed in 1936."

https://www.kodak.com/en/company/page/photography-history/

 

[Agulliver]

Harman are in no way damaging their B&W portfolio by working on colour film. I should have thought by now that it was clear that they have every intention of keeping every single B&W product on the market. They are far and away the biggest and best producer of B&W film in the world and have been for quite some time. Their core business remains B&W film, and even if the colour film takes off and eclipses the B&W business in terms of revenue....that won't change the commitment to B&W.

As for 900nm sensitised film, I do not know how difficult that is but I would imagine that if it were cost effective, someone would be producing it. If it were a quick tweak of SFX, Ilford would be making it.

I don't understand the negativity either. Harman are ensuring their future and in doing so the future of their B&W products. Phoenix R&D is paid for by the sales of Phoenix film and the £10m investment from Lloyds Bank. I have no clue where the bizarre idea that they're syphoning off funds from the B&W products to somehow prop up Phoenix comes from but it appears to be an invention of Photrio members who have some axe to grind re Harman starting a line of colour films. It certainly has zero basis in fact, as Harman keep telling us.

 

[dcy]

Phoenix R&D is paid for by the sales of Phoenix film and the £10m investment from Lloyds Bank. I have no clue where the bizarre idea that they're syphoning off funds from the B&W products to somehow prop up Phoenix comes from but it appears to be an invention of Photrio members who have some axe to grind re Harman starting a line of colour films. It certainly has zero basis in fact, as Harman keep telling us.

Yeah. I find it fascinating that the arguments against Harman working on Phoenix seem to fall neatly into two camps:

(1) Harman should have never use a dime of B&W profits to fund color R&D.
(2) Harman should have spent 10 years using B&W profits to fund color R&D and only released a film when it equaled Kodak Gold.

 

[Milpool]

Harman is the best producer of B&W film in the world? Strange claim.

Anyhow I for one hope Harman keeps increasing the price of Ilford papers.

 

[djdister]

"Introduced in 1935, KODACHROME Film became the first commercially successful amateur color film. Initially offered in 16 mm format for motion pictures, formats for 35 mm slides and 8 mm home movies followed in 1936."

https://www.kodak.com/en/company/page/photography-history/

Ja! I've got plenty of Kodachrome 35mm slides from the 1950's onward...

 

[DREW WILEY]

bfilm - kinda like comparing lizards to dinosaurs. Early projection Kodachrome was nowhere at the qualitative level as later Kodachrome sheet film. I'm glad to have at least lived in the days of 35mm K25, as well as the brief interlude of K64 in 120 roll film. But it would be wonderful to have sheet film back too, hypothetically - I doubt anyone could afford to shoot it today.

All the examples I saw were from Hurrell's Hollywood studio; they didn't do just black and white. But when it came to projection, nothing has ever excelled Technicolor in terms of color itself. Hurrell set up the studio decor for the same effect as specific Technicolor movie sets, with subsequent dye transfer printing in mind. Besides Kodachome shots, they also used 5X7 Devin tri-color cameras for sake of in- camera RGB separation negatives on black and white film.

 

[MattKing]

FWIW, I expect Harman is aiming more at the part of the marketplace that, ironically, was served by Ferrania/GAF/3M than to provide film as advanced as Gold.
The contemporaneous competitor to those products being Kodacolor II back then.

 

[Todd Niccole]

Lol you’re going to utterly ruin the day for people around here with that opinion, ruiner.

Todd "The Ruiner" That's got a nice ring to it.

 

[bfilm]

FWIW, I expect Harman is aiming more at the part of the marketplace that, ironically, was served by Ferrania/GAF/3M than to provide film as advanced as Gold.
The contemporaneous competitor to those products being Kodacolor II back then.

Actually, Matt Parry from Harman, in the video specifically mentions about eventually having "something that can challenge a Kodak Gold or a ColorPlus". I don't think he means specifically in color palette, but in not being as experimental as their color film is right now.

 

[bfilm]

I'm glad to have at least lived in the days of 35mm K25

I've seen some great pictures on Kodachrome 25.

 

[MattKing]

Actually, Matt Parry from Ilford, in the video specifically mentions about eventually having "something that can challenge a Kodak Gold or a ColorPlus". I don't think he means specifically in color palette, but in not being as experimental as their color film is right now.

Understood, but is that challenge a technical one, or a marketing one?
It was the marketing one that Ferrania/3M/GAF were quite successful at!
Those 2nd tier films were quite decent - lots of happy customers with snapshots they enjoyed.
It was tough though when I was selling a lot of those films to them along with similarly designed photofinishing services, while at work in one part-time job, while at the same time making machine colour prints from top tier films for professional photographers at my other part-time job.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I miss a lot more the handful of high speed films which had lovely conspicuous grain - Konica 1000 among color neg films; and Scotchchrome (1000?) for its high density and shrapnel grain, and Agafachrome 1000 (both 35mm and 120) for its pastel pointillistic grain, among slide films.
Then way way back there was Autochrome. I don't think any commercial venture these days is attempting to fulfill analogous categories of look.

 

[bfilm]

Understood, but is that challenge a technical one, or a marketing one?

We will see, but I suspect after a few more releases that Harman will get there in technical quality, or at least close. Matt Parry from Harman indicated in the video that the next version of the color film will probably have the anti-halation layer, so that should be a nice advancement for the quality of the film stock. I expect there will also be some other areas of progress in the next version of the color film.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I've heard elsewhere in a podcast that Harman expect to have the next iteration of Phoenix out in under a year. They seem to be very confident of making rapid progress towards the goal of a normal, everyday colour film.

It's pretty plausible that at the point that Phoenix II needed to be cleared to go for wide coating (or risk missing the available coating window) the yellow masking dye (to take the obvious example) was very close to being ready for incorporation. Once it's incorporated (and any undercuts that will impact the red/ cyan layer), that'll be the point at which anti-halation can be done (as they'll have a more final answer for overall emulsion internal behaviour etc). Once you have a known & good set of couplers and masking couplers, refining the emulsion characteristics (especially in terms of grain/ speed etc) elsewhere becomes much more achievable. I do wonder what the final speed of Phoenix III will be (I'd guess the aim is 200, but I suspect that it might have to be 100 initially).

There's an acknowledgement on Harman's part that a number of customers want more sheet film and it is under consideration.

It may well be that instead of making a new poly-base sheet only version, Harman decides to move a particular (relatively minority market, let's be frank) emulsion over to poly base completely. If they were to bin Pan-F and replace it with Delta 25 on poly base across all formats, I would not complain.

As for 900nm sensitised film, I do not know how difficult that is but I would imagine that if it were cost effective, someone would be producing it. If it were a quick tweak of SFX, Ilford would be making it.

Long story short, it seems to be to do with the limited longevity of the sensitisers (and general fogging from the environment) relative to the volume of sales per annum. I suspect the price per roll would need to be higher than Ektachrome and the expiry would be less than a year from coating - both would be more manageable if there were other markets that bought very substantial amounts for governmental/ industrial purposes (as was the reality in the past).

I would assume with all the technical know-how out there, yet they end up with the crazy spectral plots for Phoenix.

What you are stating here is that you have limited understanding about how a colour neg film works in terms of its construction. Harman are working so as to minimise their need to completely restart from zero with each generation. Phoenix II's oddities are because it has been designed to enable the rest of the masking dyes to slot in (with relative ease) which will shove the curves into the correct relationships. They know the aims and how to get there, but the challenge is making quite complex dyes that need to work well on a reliable basis and can be manufactured efficiently and cost-effectively.