The Future of Colour and B&W Film with Ilford...

Lachlan Young said:

Todd Niccole said:

I would assume with all the technical know-how out there, yet they end up with the crazy spectral plots for Phoenix.

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What you are stating here is that you have limited understanding about how a colour neg film works in terms of its construction.

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Lachlan Young said:

Harman are working so as to minimise their need to completely restart from zero with each generation. Phoenix II's oddities are because it has been designed to enable the rest of the masking dyes to slot in (with relative ease) which will shove the curves into the correct relationships. They know the aims and how to get there, but the challenge is making quite complex dyes that need to work well on a reliable basis and can be manufactured efficiently and cost-effectively.

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I'm curious as to how you know this stuff. Naturally, I don't know who you are. Starting with the assumption that you know a lot about how color film works, that wouldn't necessarily give you inside knowledge of Harman's strategy or future plans.

DREW WILEY said:

Gold is a very popular product, and not just with amateurs. But Harman making something like that certainly doesn't assure their own long term viability.

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Most of my colour photography is digital, and all of my B&W photography is analog. Sometimes, I'll see analog photos that make me wish for colour film, but I've noticed that when I do It's never Kodak's Portra, but whenever I see Gold, I like it. Phoenix I and II both have a look that is both attractive and unique, and can't be replaced by anything digital.

Analog photography makes no sense by most rational metrics, and yet here we all are, and new young people are discovering it every year. There is something about film made by people who love film that we appreciate, and the Phoenix films seem to have that something, even though they are both clearly 'beginner' films.

Lachlan Young said:

It's pretty plausible that at the point that Phoenix II needed to be cleared to go for wide coating (or risk missing the available coating window) the yellow masking dye (to take the obvious example) was very close to being ready for incorporation. Once it's incorporated (and any undercuts that will impact the red/ cyan layer), that'll be the point at which anti-halation can be done (as they'll have a more final answer for overall emulsion internal behaviour etc). Once you have a known & good set of couplers and masking couplers, refining the emulsion characteristics (especially in terms of grain/ speed etc) elsewhere becomes much more achievable. I do wonder what the final speed of Phoenix III will be (I'd guess the aim is 200, but I suspect that it might have to be 100 initially).

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I do recommend that people listen to the Sunny 16 podcast from Jun 16 2025. The guest is Michelle Parr, who is Harman/Ilford's main digital marketing person. She's the one you interact with if you are on Insta, Facebook etc. So she's no chemical engineer but she does know what's going on. One thing she stated was that Phoenix I was improved incrementally with each batch - so we now know there were several coating runs. Which also gives us an idea that they manufactured and sold a *lot* of it. Phoenix II will be the same. That may explain why some of us found that the Phoenix I we bought on launch day had less of a purple mask on the negatives than later examples. Another thing Michelle said was that the next big iteration (presumably Phoenix III though she didn't state that) might be ready in under a year and that they were very close to implementing the anti-halation.

Now....a Phoenix II type film with orange mask and anti-halation is going to be something that really could be an everyday film. Sure, it's more grainy than anything Kodak offers but in terms of colour, contrast and latitude it's going to behave fairly "normal". I get the impression that both you and I see Phoenix II very much as an intermediate step to another big improvement.

She didn't reveal much more about the roadmap. In the past, Harman have talked about more formats, faster film speeds and so on....once they have achieved their aims to reliably manufacture a competitive 200ISO CN film. BTW, it seems that Phoenix II is much closer to 200ISO than OG Phoenix. Though the one roll I've shot, I did err on the side of caution and mostly that worked out for me.

As for Harman's commitment to B&W, they have the world's most comprehensive line-up of B&W products. Nobody else comes close. There's no plans to change that. R&D though is mostly limited to ensuring all those products remain which sometimes might mean finding a substitute for a chemical that isn't available or practical. Though as Michelle Parr said in that podcast they did launch Kentmere 200 and there will be at least one more B&W launch in 2025. They're not abandoning or even deprioritising their core business. The impression I get is that the R&D on B&W films, paper and chemistry has been at the level it's currently at for a long time. We're not going to get an HP6 or Delta 12800. But we might get another film in sheets. I also look back at Ilford went into administration 20 years ago and at how there was very real concern that we'd lose all these wonderful films and papers....and yet here we are in 2025, not only with all the B&W films still available but with a couple of new ones launched and a genuine move into colour film production.

900nm IR film, I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head as to why nobody is making it. The short shelf life means it would have to be made by a company able to do small batches....and even then, it's viability is dubious.

Agulliver said:

that Phoenix I was improved incrementally with each batch - so we now know there were several coating runs. Which also gives us an idea that they manufactured and sold a *lot* of it.

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Absolutely - they were quite clear that there was going to be a sequence of manufacturability improvements while they learnt how to make/ coat the product repeatably and well - and were quite clear about various making/ coating defects at the outset.

Agulliver said:

Now....a Phoenix II type film with orange mask and anti-halation is going to be something that really could be an everyday film. Sure, it's more grainy than anything Kodak offers but in terms of colour, contrast and latitude it's going to behave fairly "normal". I get the impression that both you and I see Phoenix II very much as an intermediate step to another big improvement.

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I agree that it's a a very important incremental step - and it begins to give a better sense of the 'Harman' colour palette that will be delivered (arguably much more important than people arguing over grain/ sharpness as those are much more alterable).

Agulliver said:

Though as Michelle Parr said in that podcast they did launch Kentmere 200 and there will be at least one more B&W launch in 2025.

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This is the important bit - B&W products/ research will benefit directly from colour research, especially in emulsion technology. Harman's researchers seem much less silo'd than some major companies of the past were, and that can only be beneficial.

dcy said:

I'm curious as to how you know this stuff.

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There's very little expertise of any sort needed, other than the baseline ability of being able to look at the structural diagram for a colour neg film in Shanebrook Making Kodak Film and comparing the characteristic curves for something like Gold and the one floating around for Phoenix II. A quick look at where the yellow masking dye goes in various parts of the emulsion structure (i.e. where it adds density, pushing the curves into much more correct relationships) and a look at how 'undercuts' are used to improve particular colours relative to overall contrast, give or take some tradeoffs (see Hunt The Reproduction of Colour and some references from Ron Mowrey from years ago over on photo.net that briefly summarises it) will get you to the point where it makes much more sense. This is not new knowledge, but manufacturing these components efficiently, safely and in as environmentally sound a way as possible is non-trivial, especially if you know even a very little about organic synthesis - even less trivial is getting them to continue to work properly once dispersed into the emulsion. If you want to see the synchem complexities that are involved there are lots of patents covering making many of the components in colour emulsions - things that are readily achievable in well equipped labs, but not realistically by home experimenters.

DREW WILEY said:

Gold is a very popular product, and not just with amateurs. But Harman making something like that certainly doesn't assure their own long term viability.

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As opposed to what, developing nothing or maybe switching to manufacturing toasters? ;-) Film and photographic papers is core to what they do, and it makes perfect sense to start making new and potentially popular color films.

warden said:

switching to manufacturing toasters

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I hate to be a party pooper, but it seems fashionable these days to reduce gluten intake (not to be confused with actual gluten intolerance/allergy), which spells bad news for the toaster industry. Harman may need to explore other avenues, perhaps related to oats and chickpeas. Possibly agar-agar.

If they want more volume, it might make sense to figure out how to get a handle on the spiraling costs of Ilford paper, which is would seem to be a far more crucial niche for them than yet one more amateur color film on the market. I'm sure they are getting nervous about that, and that a number of variables are beyond their control. But it would seem to be a major speed bump in the road. Get a better handle on certain crucial components. This is a little bit off-topic. Jes' sayin'.

koraks said:

I hate to be a party pooper, but it seems fashionable these days to reduce gluten intake (not to be confused with actual gluten intolerance/allergy), which spells bad news for the toaster industry. Harman may need to explore other avenues, perhaps related to oats and chickpeas. Possibly agar-agar.

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Or... :

DREW WILEY said:

If they want more volume, it might make sense to figure out how to get a handle on the spiraling costs of Ilford paper, which is would seem to be a far more crucial niche for them than yet one more amateur color film on the market.

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It's not. The younger generation shoots film, then scans film, or has it scanned. They don't need paper. You can't post paper on Instagram.

Oh no, that's not necessarily the case at all. The same labs have their semi-automated RA4 printers going all day long, plus the big inkjet printers.
They even offer fiber-based black and white prints. There are still a number of local darkroom class opportunities in colleges and even high schools. It's not a lack of interest in printmaking at all. True lithographic cooperatives are alive and well, and even more sophisticated printmaking learning venues are available to talented young people. Everywhere you look, there are framed pictures (mostly inkjet). And film cameras themselves are very much in vogue with the younger set (well, I'm now so old that a Galapagos tortoise less than 3 ft long looks young to me - but it's with 20-somethings, and 30's types, and even high schoolers or younger that film is catching on. I rrecently had an 8 year old walk up to me with a film Nikon hanging from his neck, asking me questions).

The biggest problem is simply the unaffordability of real estate, or a place to set up one's own personal darkroom. Heck, what I paid for my whole property back in the day was less than the annual property tax and fire insurance on a dilapidated doghouse these days. A young techie couple each making over 150K apiece per annum can barely manage a down payment on a tiny house, and then can't afford to put furniture in it, let alone a darkroom remodel.

DREW WILEY said:

The same labs have their semi-automated RA4 printers going all day long, plus the big inkjet printers.

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Harman makes no RA4 paper. That's a whole different ballgame, both technologically and commercially.
Harman does of course have a significant toe in the inkjet media world with their papers. In that sense it would be useful for them to further leverage their brand equity and technological expertise, insofar as the latter is useful for inkjet (which is quite limited). Of course, when it comes to controlling the cost of paper manufacture, the main issue is really energy and Harman can do as little as anyone else to change much about that.

DREW WILEY said:

They even offer fiber-based black and white prints.

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For inkjet this is a somewhat meaningful segment; for silver halide this is a tiny little niche.

DREW WILEY said:

There are still a number of local darkroom class opportunities in colleges and even high schools.

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They represent a small revenue source.

DREW WILEY said:

The biggest problem is simply the unaffordability of real estate, or a place to set up one's own personal darkroom.

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Totally unrealistic and irrelevant analysis. This is NOT the thing that's holding back silver gel paper sales. The thing that holds this back is that it's a thing of the past and nothing is going to change that. Reducing the cost of a barrel of oats isn't going to put people back onto a horse.

@Alex Benjamin is right; you're dreaming.

DREW WILEY said:

There are still a number of local darkroom class opportunities in colleges and even high schools. It's not a lack of interest in printmaking at all.

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I think that's true. I currently have some prints in a show at a community darkroom/gallery called Image Central in Hayward, CA that seems to be thriving. I also had a peek inside the impressive new darkroom that just opened at Foothill College in Los Altos, CA (I've never seen so many Saunders/LPL 4x5 enlargers in one place!) and there seems to be a lot of interest in producing work there. As @DREW WILEY said, I think the biggest barrier for many is simply finding the space in their home to setup their own darkroom for printing. At least that's what I hear regularly from people in the local analog photography group that I run.

Yeah, sure Koraks, whatever you say. I'm sure you're an expert on the status of real estate on the Calif Coast, and what gets done with it. What the heck would I know? And what do you think is being done with those hundreds or thousands of rolls of film being processed each day by just one of multiple local labs? If they just wanted to post web images, why would "starving students" even use film and pay for a scan, when they could just shoot it digitally or via cellphone to begin with?

Logan just mentioned a venue sponsored by a local municipality. I've even seen Bob Carnie's commercially produced work from Toronto displayed in there. And there's another forum member here who sometimes teaches carbon printing workshops there. A lot is going on.

And I don't think your claim of "small revenue sources" is pertinent at all. The new UC arts complex was ridiculously expensive to build, and funded mostly by private donors, including big Hollywood types. That displays framed work and not just alternative films (and sells wine at their snack bar, not soda and popcorn). Entire large buildings in this area are committed to printmaking cooperatives of various types - and sizable commercial real estate is extremely expensive here - quite different from the fire trap "art colony" flophouses more typical of rundown doomed warehousing sectors.

Of course, you could argue that this is just a minor regional anomaly. But I don't think "minor" applies when its exactly the same geographic and demographic footprint as the highly influential world epicenter of electronics and communication tech, as well as Biotech and the pharmaceutical industry. One of these highly equipped printmaking collectives is just around the corner from Novartis, with the giant Bayer facility just bicycle distance away. I had a quantity of my own prints permanently displayed in a big fancy building a block away, until that complex itself resold. There are people in local corporations who could buy Ilford/Harman with pocket change if they wanted to. Of course, it's more in their corporate interest to promote digital imaging instead. But who knows what might catch the personal taste of some rich dude? The late Robert Redford came close to buying an entire city block right across the tracks from where I worked, hoping to put a big arts venue there; but city zoning wouldn't permit it.

I'm neither an optimist nor pessimist about all this. At this point in my life, now on a fixed retirement income, I'm happy if I can still afford my own darkroom supplies.

DREW WILEY said:

If they want more volume, it might make sense to figure out how to get a handle on the spiraling costs of Ilford paper, which is would seem to be a far more crucial niche for them than yet one more amateur color film on the market. I'm sure they are getting nervous about that, and that a number of variables are beyond their control. But it would seem to be a major speed bump in the road. Get a better handle on certain crucial components. This is a little bit off-topic. Jes' sayin'.

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100% with you Drew!

Alex Benjamin said:

It's not. The younger generation shoots film, then scans film, or has it scanned. They don't need paper. You can't post paper on Instagram.

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Sad world....

I tend to agree more with @koraks here. The overwhelming majority of folks I know who shoot film only end up with scans. Hell, I have a darkroom and even I only print a tiny fraction of the stuff I shoot.

Our local college just completed construction of a large 2-story building dedicated to photography… all digital. I need to investigate the capabilities for printmaking.

thinkbrown said:

I tend to agree more with @koraks here. The overwhelming majority of folks I know who shoot film only end up with scans. Hell, I have a darkroom and even I only print a tiny fraction of the stuff I shoot.

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Time to look for some other friends....

Well, the biggest applied arts academy in this area emphasized digital imaging, but tanked. Those kind of pros are dime a dozen. But the kid who swept our company floors walked into an interview with a portfolio containing darkroom prints along with personal sketches, plus samples of his digital printing skills, and for his first serious job landed a top advertising post at a national corporation for 200 K a year - not bad for a 21-year old! The point is, he demonstrated versatility, the ability to learn new things, and wasn't just yet another one trick digital pony. I once hired him on the side to do some digital work for myself, and paid him with a framed black and white print.

Gosh ... There's already enough doom and gloom on the news every day. For all I know, Putin might bomb the Harman factory next. Might as well lock my darkroom door for good, or else turn it into a survivalist bomb shelter and learn to drink Dektol. The sky is falling. I'll get eaten by my own cats if we run out of their favorite canned food. Gotta stockpile that in the bomb shelter too.

DREW WILEY said:

I'm neither an optimist nor pessimist about all this.

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Or a realist, for that matter. None of what you said is very relevant to the industrial reality that Harman faces. It's anecdotal, second-hand stuff reinterpreted to favor an anachronistic worldview. Amusing, but irrelevant.

Nice to have on board someone who knows everything about everywhere, and can read the future too. The art supply stores in every city wouldn't even exists except for the popularity of "anachronisms". Not everyone is inebriated with the superficial wonders of PS, Ai, and cell phone imagery. There are those who prefer a more direct contact with their craft. I think there was once long long ago even a web forum dedicated to that gravitation, called APUG or something like that. The Egyptian Museum in Cairo might know something about it.

I think there is still strong interest in darkroom printing, but not enough opportunity. I do not at all consider silver gelatin paper a thing of the past. On the contrary, the silver gelatin darkroom print is the truest purpose of photography with negative film. I think most people that appreciate the beauty of analog sooner or later have an interest in darkroom prints.

loccdor said:

The only gap I can think of in Ilford's B&W is a technical film, but that's niche and currently covered by Adox.

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Unfortunately not for much longer, CMS 20 II isn’t long for this world. It’s been a bit since they off announced that they couldn’t get the stock anymore. Doubt there’s much left. They’ve been out of bulk and sheets for months now…

Todd Niccole said:

There is one addition Ilford could make to B&W is a true infrared film that is sensitized to around 900nm. Why hasn't anyone done this since Kodak Infrared went belly up? Are the necessary spectral sensitizers just not available? Also, I lament Ilford getting into color film. What's the point in reinventing the wheel in an inferior way? I would assume with all the technical know-how out there, yet they end up with the crazy spectral plots for Phoenix. We probably don't have a whole lot of time left in this analogue game and we don't need extra R&D costs distributed to B&W products.

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IR film has always been a niche within a niche. Back when it was plentiful, and you could get it for $15 a roll, no one shot it. People didn’t used to like the look. The only reason that people like the look now is because some folks with super big followings shot some of it, and decided that they really liked it, so everyone else decided to jump on the bandwagon. Yes, the film is very expensive now, but that’s only because there’s so little of it left and the people that want to shoot it are hoarding it. When Kodak and Konica stopped making IR film, that was the death of IR film. it’s not coming back. As much as I hate to be that guy, it’s just the truth. The die sensitizers go for hundreds per milligram now because no one uses them on a large scale. That stopped with the film. And to make a new emulsion? You’re going to need at least tens, possibly hundreds of grams of it for R&D. If you ordered 100 g of it would the price go down? Sure, but you’re still going to be paying a whole lot for something that might not even pan out, and even if it does, it’s not going to have mass market appeal.

I appreciated the video, thank you for posting.

Dale

bfilm said:

I think there is still strong interest in darkroom printing, but not enough opportunity. I do not at all consider silver gelatin paper a thing of the past. On the contrary, the silver gelatin darkroom print is the truest purpose of photography with negative film. I think most people that appreciate the beauty of analog sooner or later have an interest in darkroom prints.

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+1.

Wish I had more time to print!