The Future of Colour and B&W Film with Ilford...

Milpool

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2023
Messages
811
Location
n/a
Format
4x5 Format
Lol you’re going to utterly ruin the day for people around here with that opinion, ruiner.
 

Ivo Stunga

Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
1,204
Location
Latvia
Format
35mm
Todd Niccole said:
There is one addition Ilford could make to B&W is a true infrared film that is sensitized to around 900nm. Why hasn't anyone done this since Kodak Infrared went belly up? Are the necessary spectral sensitizers just not available?
Click to expand...

I'd buy that film in bulk...
However - it's a niche within a BW niche - hardly viable economically and Harman is going the viable route with color. More power to them, because there's more of a chance for Harman to gift us a niche-niche film if this color project goes well for them. Hell, maybe E-6 film...

And competition is ALWAYS better for the consumer. Maybe enjoy this aspect on its own?
 

tezzasmall

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Messages
1,151
Location
Southend on Sea Essex UK
Format
Plastic Cameras
Great film!! I just love watching video like this. I am always totally amazed at the machines that do everything. It really scrambles my brain trying to imagine how the designers and engineers produces such things.

Hopefully one day I'll go on one of the tours of Ilford myself.

Terry S
UK
 

blee1996

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 25, 2008
Messages
1,307
Location
SF Bay Area, California
Format
Multi Format
Todd Niccole said:
There is one addition Ilford could make to B&W is a true infrared film that is sensitized to around 900nm. Why hasn't anyone done this since Kodak Infrared went belly up? Are the necessary spectral sensitizers just not available?
Click to expand...

I would also like to have another infrared film, B&W or color, from any manufacturer.
 

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Messages
12,258
Location
Coquitlam,BC Canada
Format
Multi Format
If Ilford introduced a "true" IR film, similar to HIE, I would be thrilled, but it'll never happen. It could kill SFX. Now, SFX in sheets sizes? That is a possibility.
 

warden

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Messages
3,107
Location
Philadelphia
Format
Medium Format
Todd Niccole said:
What's the point in reinventing the wheel in an inferior way?….crazy spectral plots for Phoenix. … we don't need extra R&D costs distributed to B&W products.
Click to expand...

You’re judging Harman’s efforts on their first tries, not the end product. The film will improve as these brilliant people keep refining it. Patience.

As for the “we don’t need extra R&D costs” comment, I can remember well when all R&D of film ceased and films started being discontinued industry wide during the digital revolution, and I can tell you this is better than that.
 

bfilm

Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2023
Messages
348
Location
Texas
Format
35mm
Considering that Kodachrome first came out in 1935-36, I don't think there are too many people around who remember those first rolls of Kodachrome.
 

DREW WILEY

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2011
Messages
14,333
Format
8x10 Format
Rolls? Them wahr sheet film days. I don't think I've seen anything better than 5x7 sheets of Kodachrome from the early 50's. Amazing color.
 

bfilm

Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2023
Messages
348
Location
Texas
Format
35mm

Agulliver

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,637
Location
Luton, United Kingdom
Format
Multi Format
Harman are in no way damaging their B&W portfolio by working on colour film. I should have thought by now that it was clear that they have every intention of keeping every single B&W product on the market. They are far and away the biggest and best producer of B&W film in the world and have been for quite some time. Their core business remains B&W film, and even if the colour film takes off and eclipses the B&W business in terms of revenue....that won't change the commitment to B&W.

As for 900nm sensitised film, I do not know how difficult that is but I would imagine that if it were cost effective, someone would be producing it. If it were a quick tweak of SFX, Ilford would be making it.

I don't understand the negativity either. Harman are ensuring their future and in doing so the future of their B&W products. Phoenix R&D is paid for by the sales of Phoenix film and the £10m investment from Lloyds Bank. I have no clue where the bizarre idea that they're syphoning off funds from the B&W products to somehow prop up Phoenix comes from but it appears to be an invention of Photrio members who have some axe to grind re Harman starting a line of colour films. It certainly has zero basis in fact, as Harman keep telling us.
 

dcy

Subscriber
Joined
May 9, 2025
Messages
872
Location
New Mexico, USA
Format
35mm

Yeah. I find it fascinating that the arguments against Harman working on Phoenix seem to fall neatly into two camps:

(1) Harman should have never use a dime of B&W profits to fund color R&D.
(2) Harman should have spent 10 years using B&W profits to fund color R&D and only released a film when it equaled Kodak Gold.
 

Milpool

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2023
Messages
811
Location
n/a
Format
4x5 Format
Harman is the best producer of B&W film in the world? Strange claim.

Anyhow I for one hope Harman keeps increasing the price of Ilford papers.
 

DREW WILEY

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2011
Messages
14,333
Format
8x10 Format
bfilm - kinda like comparing lizards to dinosaurs. Early projection Kodachrome was nowhere at the qualitative level as later Kodachrome sheet film. I'm glad to have at least lived in the days of 35mm K25, as well as the brief interlude of K64 in 120 roll film. But it would be wonderful to have sheet film back too, hypothetically - I doubt anyone could afford to shoot it today.

All the examples I saw were from Hurrell's Hollywood studio; they didn't do just black and white. But when it came to projection, nothing has ever excelled Technicolor in terms of color itself. Hurrell set up the studio decor for the same effect as specific Technicolor movie sets, with subsequent dye transfer printing in mind. Besides Kodachome shots, they also used 5X7 Devin tri-color cameras for sake of in- camera RGB separation negatives on black and white film.
 
Last edited:

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
53,783
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
FWIW, I expect Harman is aiming more at the part of the marketplace that, ironically, was served by Ferrania/GAF/3M than to provide film as advanced as Gold.
The contemporaneous competitor to those products being Kodacolor II back then.
 

bfilm

Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2023
Messages
348
Location
Texas
Format
35mm
MattKing said:
FWIW, I expect Harman is aiming more at the part of the marketplace that, ironically, was served by Ferrania/GAF/3M than to provide film as advanced as Gold.
The contemporaneous competitor to those products being Kodacolor II back then.
Click to expand...

Actually, Matt Parry from Harman, in the video specifically mentions about eventually having "something that can challenge a Kodak Gold or a ColorPlus". I don't think he means specifically in color palette, but in not being as experimental as their color film is right now.
 
Last edited:

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
53,783
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format

Understood, but is that challenge a technical one, or a marketing one?
It was the marketing one that Ferrania/3M/GAF were quite successful at!
Those 2nd tier films were quite decent - lots of happy customers with snapshots they enjoyed.
It was tough though when I was selling a lot of those films to them along with similarly designed photofinishing services, while at work in one part-time job, while at the same time making machine colour prints from top tier films for professional photographers at my other part-time job.
 

DREW WILEY

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2011
Messages
14,333
Format
8x10 Format
I miss a lot more the handful of high speed films which had lovely conspicuous grain - Konica 1000 among color neg films; and Scotchchrome (1000?) for its high density and shrapnel grain, and Agafachrome 1000 (both 35mm and 120) for its pastel pointillistic grain, among slide films.
Then way way back there was Autochrome. I don't think any commercial venture these days is attempting to fulfill analogous categories of look.
 

bfilm

Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2023
Messages
348
Location
Texas
Format
35mm
MattKing said:
Understood, but is that challenge a technical one, or a marketing one?
Click to expand...

We will see, but I suspect after a few more releases that Harman will get there in technical quality, or at least close. Matt Parry from Harman indicated in the video that the next version of the color film will probably have the anti-halation layer, so that should be a nice advancement for the quality of the film stock. I expect there will also be some other areas of progress in the next version of the color film.
 

Lachlan Young

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
4,989
Location
Glasgow
Format
Multi Format
Agulliver said:
I've heard elsewhere in a podcast that Harman expect to have the next iteration of Phoenix out in under a year. They seem to be very confident of making rapid progress towards the goal of a normal, everyday colour film.
Click to expand...

It's pretty plausible that at the point that Phoenix II needed to be cleared to go for wide coating (or risk missing the available coating window) the yellow masking dye (to take the obvious example) was very close to being ready for incorporation. Once it's incorporated (and any undercuts that will impact the red/ cyan layer), that'll be the point at which anti-halation can be done (as they'll have a more final answer for overall emulsion internal behaviour etc). Once you have a known & good set of couplers and masking couplers, refining the emulsion characteristics (especially in terms of grain/ speed etc) elsewhere becomes much more achievable. I do wonder what the final speed of Phoenix III will be (I'd guess the aim is 200, but I suspect that it might have to be 100 initially).

Agulliver said:
There's an acknowledgement on Harman's part that a number of customers want more sheet film and it is under consideration.
Click to expand...

It may well be that instead of making a new poly-base sheet only version, Harman decides to move a particular (relatively minority market, let's be frank) emulsion over to poly base completely. If they were to bin Pan-F and replace it with Delta 25 on poly base across all formats, I would not complain.

Agulliver said:
As for 900nm sensitised film, I do not know how difficult that is but I would imagine that if it were cost effective, someone would be producing it. If it were a quick tweak of SFX, Ilford would be making it.
Click to expand...

Long story short, it seems to be to do with the limited longevity of the sensitisers (and general fogging from the environment) relative to the volume of sales per annum. I suspect the price per roll would need to be higher than Ektachrome and the expiry would be less than a year from coating - both would be more manageable if there were other markets that bought very substantial amounts for governmental/ industrial purposes (as was the reality in the past).

Todd Niccole said:
I would assume with all the technical know-how out there, yet they end up with the crazy spectral plots for Phoenix.
Click to expand...

What you are stating here is that you have limited understanding about how a colour neg film works in terms of its construction. Harman are working so as to minimise their need to completely restart from zero with each generation. Phoenix II's oddities are because it has been designed to enable the rest of the masking dyes to slot in (with relative ease) which will shove the curves into the correct relationships. They know the aims and how to get there, but the challenge is making quite complex dyes that need to work well on a reliable basis and can be manufactured efficiently and cost-effectively.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…