The Future of Colour and B&W Film with Ilford...

[logan2z]

Nice peak behind the curtain at Ilford...

 

[Vetus]

Nice peak behind the curtain at Ilford...

Buy Ilford products, support the company, the good old brits are becoming the most dependable supplier of the materials we need for film photography and wet printing.

 

[sruddy]

thx

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Thanks for this. Very interesting.

 

[blee1996]

I watched that video too. One takeaway for me is: Harman's future R&D will be focusing on color film, since B&W is already good enough and there are plenty of choice available. This is not a bad strategy in my opinion: we definitely need more choices in affordable color film.

 

[thinkbrown]

I watched that video too. One takeaway for me is: Harman's future R&D will be focusing on color film, since B&W is already good enough and there are plenty of choice available. This is not a bad strategy in my opinion: we definitely need more choices in affordable color film.

Yeah. It's nearly impossible to argue that the market needs more Ilford b&w options. I think Kentmere 200 was a nice addition to the lineup but honestly what more could you ask for?

Very curious to see how their color options develop. I love Phoenix and have been stockpiling it since it's unclear if it'll continue to be available now that Phoenix 2 is out.

 

[Agulliver]

I cannot think of any real gaps in the Ilford/Kentmere range of B&W films. They seem to have every base covered. At this point I don't think we need Delta 6400, Pan 25 or HP6 though I'd buy them if they appeared.

I've heard elsewhere in a podcast that Harman expect to have the next iteration of Phoenix out in under a year. They seem to be very confident of making rapid progress towards the goal of a normal, everyday colour film. The podcast seemed to indicate, as does this video, that they are aiming to make something akin to Color Plus or Gold rather than Portra or Ektar....but equally if they achieve that goal I don't see them stopping!

 

[loccdor]

The only gap I can think of in Ilford's B&W is a technical film, but that's niche and currently covered by Adox.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Yes, please! SFX and Pan F in sheet film sizes!

 

[retina_restoration]

Yes, please! SFX and Pan F in sheet film sizes!

And bring back Delta 400 in sheet film sizes. Rumor suggests that they don't want to cannibalize HP5+ sales, but I dislike HP5+ immensely and it's no substitute for Delta 400, which I love working with. Also, HP5+ is pretty useless for alt process printing because its base fog is too much and it makes for poor Salt/Kallitype prints.

 

[Prest_400]

It's always fantastic to see the factory and people.
Their line up is fantastically well covered. Heck, I have got all 3 types of 400 film they make!

I cannot think of any real gaps in the Ilford/Kentmere range of B&W films. They seem to have every base covered. At this point I don't think we need Delta 6400, Pan 25 or HP6 though I'd buy them if they appeared.

I've heard elsewhere in a podcast that Harman expect to have the next iteration of Phoenix out in under a year. They seem to be very confident of making rapid progress towards the goal of a normal, everyday colour film. The podcast seemed to indicate, as does this video, that they are aiming to make something akin to Color Plus or Gold rather than Portra or Ektar....but equally if they achieve that goal I don't see them stopping!

They do mention continuous R&D to replace component differences, but large generational changes stopped long ago. The latest change would have been a Delta 400 reformulation about 20 years ago which I found referenced through user reports by developing times and such. Then an oddity of a batch of Delta 200 (yes, 200) in latam.
Admittedly Harman are involved with Acros II "made in UK" and if they have a largely integrated role in its production, they should be able to manufacture an equivalent film if/should Fuji pull the rug on it. That'd be an Orthopan, fine grain, very low reciprocity failure film. In line with that, assume that with the color R&D, they would be able to improve the B&W a notch... But that would surely be in the Delta lineup.

Achieving a Kodak or Fuji pro line level of film would be fantastic but surely a very long shot and ahead ofa normal consumer film. I would bet that the large majority of the C41 use is around the consumer films such as Gold, Color Plus, Fujicolor. More so with a very expensive Portra, Ektar lineup and no Fujicolor professional films left.
Something hard to compare now, is how a refined final-ish version Ilford Color film (Phoenix mkIII, IV, V?) would be to the late consumer films such as Agfa, Konica, Ferrania. Might be a rhetorical question as those probably were equivalent to what Color Plus or Fuji C200 has been, but we would again have another manufacturer's color palette.
The C41 200 new (re)entrant range is getting interesting. Phoenix, Orwo NC200 (plus spinoffs) and Lucky 200...

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

And bring back Delta 400 in sheet film sizes. Rumor suggests that they don't want to cannibalize HP5+ sales, but I dislike HP5+ immensely and it's no substitute for Delta 400, which I love working with. Also, HP5+ is pretty useless for alt process printing because its base fog is too much and it makes for poor Salt/Kallitype prints.

I love HP5 immensely. Although it can't be use right out of the box for Alt., with the right developer, it can work. I've made Carbon Transfer prints with it. D-19 1+1. But yes, I too would love to see D400... but I got spanked by some people here years ago, for evening mentioning it... I used it in the 90's, and loved it.

 

[mshchem]

It's both prudent and gutsy for Harman to put research £ into color. One reason that Ilford has done so well with the full line of black and white over the last 20+ years is the size of their operation.

If there's some sort of global business/geopolitical hiccup, Kodak could be out of the film business. Hard to say about things like that??

Clearly the newest Ilford and Harman products have been very well received.

I would love to see a Harman produced video on optically printing Phoenix II film. So far all I've seen are scans. Could be that Harman doesn't see optical color printing as a thing?? Which is probably the right bet.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I don't see anyone at this point in time realistically being capable of replacing Kodak when it comes to quality color film manufacture. That assumes Fuji will keep retreating in that category. Funky fun film is a whole different category, which doesn't interest me a bit.

 

[thinkbrown]

I don't see anyone at this point in time realistically being capable of replacing Kodak when it comes to quality color film manufacture. That assumes Fuji will keep retreating in that category. Funky fun film is a whole different category, which doesn't interest me a bit.

I don't think anyone is expecting Harman to overnight be able to compete with Ektar or Portra, but I also don't think it's unreasonable to think that they could have something that could compete with Gold within the next 5-10 years.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Gold is a very popular product, and not just with amateurs. But Harman making something like that certainly doesn't assure their own long term viability. All the film manufacturers combined, in this day and age, are just little furry things sneaking around the toes of financial dinosaurs. Hard to say when the next asteroid will hit.

 

[thinkbrown]

Gold is a very popular product, and not just with amateurs. But Harman making something like that certainly doesn't assure their own long term viability. All the film manufacturers combined, in this day and age, are just little furry things sneaking around the toes of financial dinosaurs. Hard to say when the next asteroid will hit.

I was just talking about metered expectations and hopes for their film products. It doesn't seem that Harman is counting solely on color films for their future.

Based on what Harman themselves are saying they're doing well in film manufacturing, and based on their website they're also diversified into antimicrobial technology, warehousing, and other contract coating. Definitely doesn't seem like they're keeping all their eggs in one basket.

 

[dcy]

I watched that video too. One takeaway for me is: Harman's future R&D will be focusing on color film, since B&W is already good enough and there are plenty of choice available. This is not a bad strategy in my opinion: we definitely need more choices in affordable color film.

Yeah. I saw the video in my YT feed and that bit really got my attention.

I also thought it was interesting when the guy said that Harman was weathered the film apocalypse better than others because B&W film didn't decline as strongly. Never thought of that, but it makes sense.

 

[dcy]

Very curious to see how their color options develop. I love Phoenix and have been stockpiling it since it's unclear if it'll continue to be available now that Phoenix 2 is out.

We shot one roll of Phoenix, and I was surprised at how much I liked it --- I was half-expecting it to look awful, but I quite liked the saturated colors I got.

I've shot a roll of Phoenix II but haven't developed it yet. I also have 1 more roll of Phoenix and 1 of Phoenix II that I haven't shot yet.

 

[dcy]

The podcast seemed to indicate, as does this video, that they are aiming to make something akin to Color Plus or Gold rather than Portra or Ektar....but equally if they achieve that goal I don't see them stopping!

What do you mean? Do you just mean "consumer grade" film?

 

[Agulliver]

What do you mean? Do you just mean "consumer grade" film?

From the video linked above and a "Sunny 16" podcast with guest Michelle Parr from Harman back in June, I surmise that the roadmap Harman have is to end up with a C41 film that is an "everyday" film like Color Plus or Gold. Where they go once they've achieved that is anyone's guess but they're not currently even aiming at Portra. That's the very strong impression I get, that Harman are looking to produce a fully competitive consumer grade film.

That's where the biggest film market is, by far. If they can capture even 10% of that segment of the market they could equal or surpass sales of all their B&W films combined. And we know that for some time, Ilford has been *the* biggest and most reliable producer of B&W film in the world.

And yes, to be clear, it's not that no R&D will take place on B&W or that any B&W products will be dropped. It's that the main area of R&D will be colour. There's an acknowledgement on Harman's part that a number of customers want more sheet film and it is under consideration. It all depends if it's going to be viable economically for them. In the Sunny 16 podcast there was a *strong* hint that a new B&W product will be launched before the end of the year. Logic suggests this will not be HP6 or Delta 6400 but an existing film in a hitherto unavailable format. Obviously delta 3200 in 220

 

[Todd Niccole]

There is one addition Ilford could make to B&W is a true infrared film that is sensitized to around 900nm. Why hasn't anyone done this since Kodak Infrared went belly up? Are the necessary spectral sensitizers just not available? Also, I lament Ilford getting into color film. What's the point in reinventing the wheel in an inferior way? I would assume with all the technical know-how out there, yet they end up with the crazy spectral plots for Phoenix. We probably don't have a whole lot of time left in this analogue game and we don't need extra R&D costs distributed to B&W products.

 

[dcy]

Also, I lament Ilford getting into color film. What's the point in reinventing the wheel in an inferior way?

Do you want to live in a world where there is only one company that makes color film?

Also, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Your life is not made worse by the existence of a product that other people want to buy but you don't.

We probably don't have a whole lot of time left in this analogue game and we don't need extra R&D costs distributed to B&W products.

You don't know for a fact that B&W product margins are subsidizing color. Quite the contrary, as @Agulliver said, the color market being so much larger than B&W, in the long run, it may well be that color is the thing that ensures the continued existence of Harman and its beloved B&W films.

 

[thinkbrown]

I really can't understand the viewpoint that just because they can't immediately release a perfect color film, they shouldn't work on developing one. Harman is not a charity, they're not doing this for kicks. They're doing it because they expect to be able to make money at it. Film sales have been growing in the last decade despite rising costs and the majority of those sales are of color film. Harman sees an opportunity to capture a chunk of that market.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Good grief, there really are some party poopers here. I for one am glad that Ilford is at least trying to produce colour. It's no where near Kodak's offerings, but each new batch, it can only get better.