The Fish Gelatin process - first CMYK prints

Dan Pavel

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
244
Location
Constanta, Romania
Format
Multi Format
Finally, after more than 1 year of testing, I have managed to tune the process and start printing. Here is the first print.



The process involves using Ferric Ammonium Citrate to sensitize a pigmented fish gelatin solution. The development is done in a diluted solution of peroxide.
It is a perfectly harmless alternative for gum printing and therefore an airbrush can be used to apply the solution on paper. That's what I did.
This print is a 6 layers CMY fish gelatin print on a Pt/Pd black layer. The paper used here is a 280x380 mm. sheet of Fabriano Artistico 640.

The process itself involves more stages and precautions and therefore I'll write a detailed presentation later, next week. Till then I work on a new print.
 

FotoD

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2020
Messages
392
Location
EU
Format
Analog
That looks nice!

How many stops can you print with one color layer? IME the tricky part is stopping the highlights from washing off in processing.
 
OP
OP

Dan Pavel

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
244
Location
Constanta, Romania
Format
Multi Format
Yes, the highlights are the most difficult to print correctly. And not only because of the risk of washing off, but because any little color misbalance is much more visible in the highlights.
I used 2 layers for each color, a highlights layer and a general layer. The first layer, the highlights layer, has 1/4 the pigment of the general layer and a longer exposure. The exposure of the general layer is shorter so that it adds nothing to the highlights. Both layers use the same negative with an adjustment curve specially developed for handling both.
 
OP
OP

Dan Pavel

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
244
Location
Constanta, Romania
Format
Multi Format
Not really, more like an alternative to Gum Bichromate or a direct Carbon Print. While whet it even has a relief, just as Carbon Prints.
 

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,556
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
Very cool. I think you now need to try it on a nice negative of a fish. You can use it for the cover page of your whitepaper
 

NedL

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
3,388
Location
Sonoma County, California
Format
Multi Format
Wow, that's really impressive. This is basically Chiba "direct carbon" using fish gelatin, correct? I'm looking forward to reading more about it! Well done!
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
23,174
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Dan Pavel said:
Here is the first print.
Click to expand...

That's quite jaw-droppingly good for a first print! Congratulations, a very spectacular result indeed!
Did you profile this process as e.g. Calvin Grier proposes to? Or otherwise, how did you go from a digital file to a more or less color-correct print?

Does the use of fish gelatin/isinglass avoid the tricky bit that the Chiba process always gets stuck at, e.g. the need for an oxygen barrier?
 

xiaruan

Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2024
Messages
36
Location
HuBei China
Format
4x5 Format
I have attempted to use ammonium ferric citrate to sensitise Arabic gum for multicolor printing. Hydrogen peroxide was also used as the developer. However, the image curing effect was poor and the image was easily washed off.
 
Last edited:

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
23,174
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
You can get a somewhat decent direct 'carbon'/pigment print using FAC and gelatin as long as you keep the layer very thin. This will work OK with halftone screen negatives. For continuous tone negatives, you need a process that allows for thicker layers and then FAC + gelatin becomes a problem unless you expose through the base of a transparent support. That's about the only way it'll work, at all. If fish gelatin doesn't have this limitation, that would be great at least for direct prints, since I don't see how you could do a transfer process with fish gelatin (maybe at very low temperatures?)
 
OP
OP

Dan Pavel

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
244
Location
Constanta, Romania
Format
Multi Format
Thank you all!
I don't know how Calvin Grier profiles his processes.

Basically, in PS I go on the route Image Mode RGB->CMYK->Multichannel. In the Multichannel mode I change the color of the C, M, Y and K channels to the measured values of C, M, Y and K I actually use and after that I use the limited tools available in this mode to make the image look as close to my initial intention as possible. Then I split channels, apply adjustment curves and make the negative for each color.
Also, when I make the emulsion I balance the quantity of pigment for C, M and Y so that in highlights (=1/4 diluted) a neutral gray will result when mixed.
I haven't noticed any oxygen barrier problem. However, I only tested printing 0,5-3 hours after applying the emulsion.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP

Dan Pavel

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
244
Location
Constanta, Romania
Format
Multi Format
xiaruan said:
I have attempted to use ammonium ferric citrate to sensitise Arabic gum for multicolor printing. Hydrogen peroxide was also used as the developer. However, the image curing effect was poor and the image was easily washed off.
Click to expand...
I tried it, too. It stains the highlights like hell.
With fish glue the image is quite strong. I once forgot a test for 2 hours in slowly running water and the image was still good.
 
OP
OP

Dan Pavel

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
244
Location
Constanta, Romania
Format
Multi Format
Yes, thicker(=saturated) layers are possible with fish gelatin. I use 2 layers/color not to get sufficient saturation but to control highlights.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
23,174
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Dan Pavel said:
I don't know how Calvin Grier profiles his processes.
Click to expand...

Differently from your approach; doesn't matter though, thanks for the quick explanation of your workflow. Makes sense, too. Where Calvin's and your approaches differ is in e.g. the balancing of C&M&Y which he doesn't do, and instead solves the problem neutral balancing through an ICC profile. Either way will work and each will have its own pros & cons. You're definitely getting excellent results with your workflow, that much is certain.

Dan Pavel said:
I haven't noticed any oxygen barrier problem.
Click to expand...
Thinking about it again, you shouldn't as you're doing a direct print, not a transfer. My bad; I got things mixed up for a bit.

Are you printing from continuous tone or halftone negatives?
 

DREW WILEY

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2011
Messages
14,008
Format
8x10 Format
It sure seems to have its own look. Quite interesting. I wish you well.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
23,174
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Thanks; very interesting to read that you get these results with a direct pigment process and continuous tone negatives. That's quite an achievement indeed. Congratulations; this is really remarkable.
 

PGum

Subscriber
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
48
Location
Toronto
Format
Multi Format
Dan,

That is a great result. Congrats! I have done a fair bit of printing with fish gelatine/FAC/ peroxide (CHIBA) in the past. You have managed the shortcomings well, which for me is the short print out scale of 2-3 stops. The split out of a separate highlight and shadow coat makes sense. Nice clean highlights too. Did you size the paper. What type of paper if I may ask?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…