The Film Developing Cookbook, 2nd Edition

MattKing · Dec 24, 2019

NortheastPhotographic said:
I could see doing inversion processing using a 2500 series tank and 6 sheets of 4x5 film. But for 8x10 using anything other than an expert drum seems like such a waste of chemistry.

Just use a replenishment regime - never any concerns with "wasting" chemistry.

mshchem · Dec 24, 2019

I've used tanks, trays, Jobos etc. I never had any problems.

mpirie · Dec 25, 2019

NortheastPhotographic said:
I could see doing inversion processing using a 2500 series tank and 6 sheets of 4x5 film.

I suffered from a lot of oxidation using the 2500 drums with 5x4 sheet film.

I eventually reached a viable solution using 2+2+100 (1+1+50) instead of the accepted 1+1+100 mix.

So my norm is 4 sheets at a time in a 2509 spiral and 2501 tank on the lowest rotary speed my CPP2 will allow.

Mike

titrisol · Dec 26, 2019

Got my book under the Xmas tree, lots of good info... now I have to buy the latest ed from the Darkroom cookbook (I have the one from 2000)

JWMster · Dec 26, 2019

Will Kindle this baby tonight. I have the prior release on Kindle 'cause I got into the game late. Nice to be able to pull up anywhere. Glad to see it.

Ai Print · Jan 3, 2020

Got my new edition this week, thanks Steve!

moviemaniac · Jan 6, 2020

Got the book during the holidays - a very welcome update to the previous edition with lots more details! Got a whole load of new raw chemicals on the way to try some things in the darkroom soon!

Steve Anchell · Jan 6, 2020

NortheastPhotographic said:
I've been reading my copy. Great stuff.

I notice that one or both of the authors is pretty bearish on on Jobo processing of B&W film. Certainly I understand the arguments in some cases, but it's acknowledged that when it comes to sheet film even 4x5 wouldn't necessarily show any deficiencies until a 40x50 enlargement. Personally the convenience of expert drums cannot be understated for those (most users) who have no access to dip and dunk processors or 'deep tank' systems.

I was hoping to get some clarification on the developer recommendation for rotary tanks. It seemed like the authors are recommended 'undiluted' solvent developers such as D76 or XTol. I am to take this as straight mixtures? But they also seem to advise both strengthening developer mixtures and extending times, which is certainly unusual for rotary processing.

The fact is, I'm unlikely to ever go larger than 11x14 from a 4x5 negative, and I'm contact printing 8x10. Perhaps I should just use XTol straight... I was hoping to use Pyrocat HD, but maybe I should just use that for roll film formats where the degree of enlargement is less...

We tried to make it clear, perhaps we didn't, that the reservations Bill and I have regarding the Jobo are for small format film, i.e., 35mm and 120, and for pyro developers. I have consistently said, if not in the FDCB then in other discussions, including those appearing on my own forum, darkroomcookbook.com, that the problems of reduced sharpness that we identify are not of great concern for anyone using 4x5 unless you go over 40x50" in enlargement. If this is not clear then I apologize.

However, the problems with aerial oxidation that are likely to appear with pyro unless modifications are made to the formula or processing procedure, apply to all formats.

I am not certain that we are recommending any particular developer, undiluted or otherwise, for use in rotary tanks. The main concern is that the developing agent doesn't exhaust before development is complete.

Steve Anchell · Jan 6, 2020

NortheastPhotographic said:
I could see doing inversion processing using a 2500 series tank and 6 sheets of 4x5 film. But for 8x10 using anything other than an expert drum seems like such a waste of chemistry. John Sexton was a big proponent of Jobo processing and TMAX films, so obviously there is nothing 'wrong' with the process inherently.

Please note what I said in my last response, there is nothing inherently wrong with the process, especially for large format. Sexton was not using pyro. To my knowledge he was (or is) using T-Max developer or Xtol. I am not familiar with his dilutions.

Steve Anchell · Jan 6, 2020

I received an email from the publisher of Focal Press, Routledge, that they are having a 20% off sale of all books, including FDCB and The Darkroom Cookbook, through February 1, 2020. If you haven't purchased a copy go to this link, https://www.routledge.com/, register on their site, then search for the FDCB.

If you have already purchased the FDCB the discount is good for all books on their site including great books on alternative processes.

NortheastPhotographic · Jan 6, 2020

Steve Anchell said:
We tried to make it clear, perhaps we didn't, that the reservations Bill and I have regarding the Jobo are for small format film, i.e., 35mm and 120, and for pyro developers. I have consistently said, if not in the FDCB then in other discussions, including those appearing on my own forum, darkroomcookbook.com, that the problems of reduced sharpness that we identify are not of great concern for anyone using 4x5 unless you go over 40x50" in enlargement. If this is not clear then I apologize.

However, the problems with aerial oxidation that are likely to appear with pyro unless modifications are made to the formula or processing procedure, apply to all formats.

I am not certain that we are recommending any particular developer, undiluted or otherwise, for use in rotary tanks. The main concern is that the developing agent doesn't exhaust before development is complete.

Thanks for responding! I'm actually moving to testing XTol with replenishment for my Jobo run sheet film. This should eliminate many issues that could come up since you're always using straight developer, and since XTol has many posted times for rotary machines. Re Pyro and roll film, for my personal work I do tend to use small tanks unless I am in a time crunch. I'm going to be processing some Ortho+ in 120 using Pyrocat HD in the coming days, and I'll do that in a Patterson tank so as to reduce my agitation down to every 3 minutes.

Kino · Jan 6, 2020

Steve,

Great book! I have learned a lot and feel more confident in making educated choices about developers, rather than just blindly trying recommended types/dilutions.

Would you mind one slight suggestion for improving the next edition?

The cover... it's not real durable. Mine started warping-up the first day I started reading it, as I can be hard on books. I am sure the cost of a ring-bound edition that lays flat would have driven the price up substantially, but could you think about laminated covers that are not white or off-white? It's very attractive, but tends to show dirt pretty quickly.

(I know, I know: wahh, wahh, wahhh, my ice cream is too cold!)

I made a trip down to the Office Depot and found some clear, self adhesive laminate to cover my copy and hope that will prolong its life, but the covers are definitly already "warpy".

Anyway, don't let my minor criticism deflect from my major praise for the book.

Hats off to you and Bill Troop!

cmacd123 · Jan 6, 2020

Kino said:
Steve,
Mine started warping-up the first day I started reading it, as I can be hard on books. I am sure the cost of a ring-bound edition that lays flat would have driven the price up substantially, but could you think about laminated covers that are not white or off-white? It's very attractive, but tends to show dirt pretty quickly.

do you have the paper or hard bound edition?

lamination is always a possibility, or see who your library uses as a bookbinder. one place I went to school so many years ago regularly sent boxes of books to https://smithsfallsbookbinding.com/ to have worn out covers repaired or replaced. (and have magazines bound into hard cover books so that individual issues did not get "Lost"

Kino · Jan 7, 2020

cmacd123 said:
do you have the paper or hard bound edition?

I do have the paperback, but was just suggesting some rudimentary form of protective skin for the paperback edition. $45-50 is not an insubstantial amount of money for a paperback book...

(Yes, I do understand there was a hard-bound edition, at 3X the cost, but is it spiral bound and with protective covers of plastic?)

As it stands now, the finish is very subject to deterioration by simply reading the book, let alone dragging it into a darkroom environment.

As I stated, I did find some clear, self-adhesive laminate and covered it myself...

Larry Cloetta · Jan 7, 2020

Different people treat books differently. I am on chapter 8, have been reading it almost every day since I got it weeks ago, and holding it in one hand and taking notes with the other (pages of typed notes which is the only reason I haven’t finished it yet). The single most valuable photography related book I have ever seen. Have traveled with it, pulling it in and out of a softshell suitcase. It still looks as nice as the day it arrived here, so I am personally not sure that there is really any kind of problem with the cover or the binding as far as I can see.
Some just like spiral bound looseleaf books, and I understand that, but am only posting here so people are not left with the impression that there is anything wrong or second class about the quality of the cover or the binding on this book, because there isn’t. It’s impressively nice as is.

138S · Jan 7, 2020

Steve Anchell said:
We tried to make it clear, perhaps we didn't, that the reservations Bill and I have regarding the Jobo are for small format film, i.e., 35mm and 120, and for pyro developers. I have consistently said, if not in the FDCB then in other discussions, including those appearing on my own forum, darkroomcookbook.com, that the problems of reduced sharpness that we identify are not of great concern for anyone using 4x5 unless you go over 40x50" in enlargement. If this is not clear then I apologize.

However, the problems with aerial oxidation that are likely to appear with pyro unless modifications are made to the formula or processing procedure, apply to all formats.

I am not certain that we are recommending any particular developer, undiluted or otherwise, for use in rotary tanks. The main concern is that the developing agent doesn't exhaust before development is complete.

Steve, first I would like to tell that it has been a privilege having learned a lot from your books, most important I got is an open vision about darkroom processing, just understanding what nuances are there and what can matter or not for a job.

It is not that easy making a book that at same time is both an instructable and a reference manual. I guess that main problem is "religion"

Always we had controversy in even simple concepts like pre-soak vs straight, rotary vs other, tabular vs cubic, acid stop vs plain water... but I guess the book does a pretty good job by warning reader that this controversy exists but that we also have scientific facts that apply different depending on particular workflows.

I'm very happy of having learned in your books that often there is not a better way but choices, and that's about mastering the tools we use.

Thanks for having made those books !

(Regrading pyro in rotary there is no doubt that oxydation may harm in some situations, rising general stain, what said in the book it's pretty fair. If BERGGER sells "Roto-additive for PMK" they have a reason... Of course effect depends on many things, including formulation and what we want to tolerate... But reader should learn that oxydation can be a concern that may have to be addressed, when one gets a high general stain then he has to know from where it may come, and this is what book teaches.

Also adjacency effects are described fairly well... , again anyone can make a side by side to see if the effect is important for him, the important point is teaching that the effect is there, which is what the book does !)

Kino · Jan 7, 2020

Larry Cloetta said:
Some just like spiral bound looseleaf books, and I understand that, but am only posting here so people are not left with the impression that there is anything wrong or second class about the quality of the cover or the binding on this book, because there isn’t. It’s impressively nice as is.

Where did you get the impression I called it "Second Class" or lower quality? Who mentioned the binding as begin defective?
If you want to rebut my statements, address what I posted and don't imply what isn't there.

Larry Cloetta · Jan 7, 2020

Kino said:
Where did you get the impression I called it "Second Class" or lower quality? Who mentioned the binding as begin defective?
If you want to rebut my statements, address what I posted and don't imply what isn't there.

For what it’s worth, I never said that you called it second class or that you said it was lower quality. Nor did I “get the impression” or imply that you said that. I said what I said, and neither meant nor implied anything past that.

My experience with the cover and the utility of the binding is different than yours has been, regarding the “warping” etc.
I wasn’t rebutting you or correcting you, I was only relating what my experience had been with the book as it obviously differs from yours, and I was only offering this as another person’s opinion, based on my experience, for those out there who don’t have the book who might be trying to decide between the soft cover and the hard cover.
That’s all I was trying to do, I wasn’t denigrating you or your judgment as I have no reason to doubt that your experience was exactly what you said it was. As was mine.

billtroop · Jan 7, 2020

Thank you very much for this message. I really appreciate it.

Larry Cloetta said:
Different people treat books differently. I am on chapter 8, have been reading it almost every day since I got it weeks ago, and holding it in one hand and taking notes with the other (pages of typed notes which is the only reason I haven’t finished it yet). The single most valuable photography related book I have ever seen. Have traveled with it, pulling it in and out of a softshell suitcase. It still looks as nice as the day it arrived here, so I am personally not sure that there is really any kind of problem with the cover or the binding as far as I can see.
Some just like spiral bound looseleaf books, and I understand that, but am only posting here so people are not left with the impression that there is anything wrong or second class about the quality of the cover or the binding on this book, because there isn’t. It’s impressively nice as is.

Larry Cloetta · Jan 7, 2020

billtroop said:
Thank you very much for this message. I really appreciate it.

You are much more than welcome. This book has been a gift to me. And others, I am sure.

Wish I were younger. So many, now better lit, roads to follow, so little time.

cmacd123 · Jan 7, 2020

yes, such an interesting book, as soon as my copy arrived, I ordered another. one for the darkroom and one for my den. Thank you to both authors for doing a wonderful update on what was already a classic reference.

The Film Developing Cookbook, 2nd Edition

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