The Fate of Ilfochrome

[Roger Cole]

Did any one here note what Simon Galley said about the difficulty manufacturing this product? It is incredibly difficult to make and therefore as the quantity that is sold decreases, the price will go up! Mass production kept the price down and gave a reasonable profit margin.

That is no longer true.

PE

Nope, didn't see it. But I take it that means the chance of Ilford UK/Harmon buying it from the Swiss and starting production again are nill rather than the 0.001% I had thought.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Simon already posted here that Harman will not undertake the manufacture of color products. But, anyone can change their mind. I'll leave that to Harman to determine. After all, his comment was then and this is now.

PE

 

[tomalophicon]

Is this Supergloss a reversal product?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Supergloss is NOT reversal but color neg; Ciba is not reversal either but direct positive. Anyway ...
blaming marketing has little to do with it. The cost of polyester base especially, but of all the other
petrochem products has gone up dramatically in recent years. Most commercial labs have failed, and
most home printers would rather be geeks with new desktop toys. And just look at the economics - a relatively plain piece of paper with just a little sizing, and no dyes or gelatin at all, is an obscenely profitable piece of material, just like the inks themselves.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Our friend from Oz - Look up Andy Cross. He is a friendly marsupial like you. And although he teaches
digital photog down in Oz, he is an optical engineer who personally prints in Ciba, dye transfer, and
4-color carbon.

 

[jrhilton]

Is this Supergloss a reversal product?

I'm afraid not, Crystal Archive Super Glossy is normal RA-4. The only way to use with slide is to make an inter-negative or scan then print via lightjet etc.

If you want to get a look close to Ilfochrome without actually using Ilfochrome paper then it is worth checking out,it will take some work but can be worth it.

 

[Roger Cole]

Supergloss is NOT reversal but color neg; Ciba is not reversal either but direct positive. Anyway ...
blaming marketing has little to do with it. The cost of polyester base especially, but of all the other
petrochem products has gone up dramatically in recent years. Most commercial labs have failed, and
most home printers would rather be geeks with new desktop toys. And just look at the economics - a relatively plain piece of paper with just a little sizing, and no dyes or gelatin at all, is an obscenely profitable piece of material, just like the inks themselves.

I know lots of people like it for the polyester base, but I'd personally be happy if I could just get it in an RC paper base like they made at one time. That's mostly what I printed, because I was a college student and it was cheap (and looked good - maybe not like a sheet of super glossy polyester but had the color if Ilfochrome with a surface that just looked like other color papers of the day.)

Guess if I want those 35mm slides I've shot so many of in the past couple of years, and my old ones too, printed then it's best to find someone who does a good scan-and-lightjet-to-RA4 or learn to make internegs (or do things verbotten here and produce results that would, honestly, be pretty good, but just not AS good.)

 

[tomalophicon]

Thanks for that.
I have my own methods of printing slides optically, but you guys are just gonna have to wait until I unveil my project to the world. It involves an interneg, but not your straightforward process.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Cross process Endura or CA then. Makes good prints from slides if you do it right.

PE

 

[DREW WILEY]

Where there's a will, there's a way. I started planning for the demise of Ciba almost a decade ago.
Color neg materials still weren't up to par, but now things have gotten pretty damn good, though
that's no guarantee Kodak won't pull their end of the rug out from under us. Fuji CA papers and RA4 work perfectly well in home dkrm drums etc. To get the best results with Ciba you had to learn
masking; same for color neg printing, though with different tweaks. But the sum cost is far less than
Ciba was, and significantly less than a high-quality scan and Lightjet etc output (at least for serious
large format work). If some of the positive energy was redirected and concentrated on some of these newer products, it might equate to a mini revival of actual home darkroom color enthusiasts.
If everyone just wants to sit on their ass, then they've got their inkjet printers already.

 

[Rudeofus]

Realistically, it is pointless grandstanding to suddenly feel the urge to stock up on chems, papers and whatnot and assume you can keep running the process well into the future.
[...] Move along and transition — analogue to digital; if you do not, all you will have are slides and not a skerrick of skill to manage any processing of them in the post-analogue era, where darkrooms and wet chems had then become a nostalgic era for poignant reflection, rather than treating the coming end of it as a catalyst for change and skilling up so that you can rest assured that so long as film is available you can still make something of it rather than turn your back on photography altogether.

In some not so recent thread lots and lots of members here outed themselves as either artists or IT folks, and let me tell you I'm not an artist myself, and I can tell you right away which of the groups is rather going to ditch photography as a hobby than transition to a form which involves spending yet more hours in front of a computer screen Yes, I definitely plan on stocking up on paper and chems and it will be interesting to see what happens during the next five years.

Let's not forget that Ilfochrome lost legions of dedicated analogue photographers here in Australia with the closure of the last long-term pro-level lab in Adelaide. The exodus away from analogue printing's finest was profound. [...] It's not that Switzerland cared much for deadlines, delivery etiquette, quality control or a litany of other disturbing problems that harried labs working the very expensive Ilfochrome process, such as faulty, scratched, spoilt or unsuitable media. We're probably better off without it now that other processes are getting a serious leg-up on the old bastion of prints.

That's one of the few positive aspects of this whole fiasco: I can literally hear the few remaining Ilfochrome labs rejoice that they do no longer have to deal with this miserable company. Good riddance, Ilford Switzerland (after I have received my paper & chems )

Did any one here note what Simon Galley said about the difficulty manufacturing this product? It is incredibly difficult to make and therefore as the quantity that is sold decreases, the price will go up! Mass production kept the price down and gave a reasonable profit margin.

It was JFK who once said "not because they are easy, but because they are hard". You personally are witness that converting a silver halide based photography company into some digital outfit with no purpose does not automatically make it viable or profitable. Ilford Switzerland can and will not survive by selling re-badged Hahnemühle paper or doing other "easy stuff", at least not in the long run, not with Swiss salaries and certainly not with the current exchange rate of the Schweizer Franken.

 

[PKM-25]

As written to me off the record by a solid source:

"The declaration by the Swiss ILFORD division, at 1st reading looks like a dedicated group of artisans who just cannot afford the price of gold anymore with which to sculpt their precious little baubles for the masses. After much back and forth including a lengthy conversation with Christian Neumann (German rep), it all leaves me confused. It would appear that nothing is cast in stone. For sure there will be another run, which means coat a piece of ILFOCHROME the size of a football field and divvy it up. The rumor has it the 30% increase is not realistic and will be reduced to a smaller more workable figure. And any increase will only affect paper and film products not chemistry. Which is really good news because a bottle of fine Cognac is literally cheaper than ILFOCHROME chemistry.

My understanding is that possibly next week will provide a clearer picture (so to speak). The Swiss are notoriously detail oriented but they also move painfully slow in the logistics of change regardless of the direction. Change is not necessarily good!
I spoke with my XXXXXXX rep and there has been a run on the stock they have, which means someone must like ILFOCHROME, which means there actually is a demand for it. The down side is the XXXXXXX is out of most stock however there is a large delivery en route. Everything is shipped via container and boats just don't go as fast as airplanes, as well as the distribution once it arrives can be tedious. The bottom line on this whole issue is it's not over till the fat lady sings. And it is most definitely possible she might sing a different song than the one anticipated."

I really hope this is not the end of Ilfochrome as I have a show from Kodachrome slides to print when I have the money...

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

The discourse changes nothing; at best it is heresy. It is not emboldened by fact, but shrouded in conjecture. The fact we do have is the statement by Ilford themselves.
The demand for Ilfochrome (like Kodachrome) is not there and has been diminishing since at least 1999 and more rapidly in recent times, as any of the foibles in the foregoing posts would ably demonstrate. Prices rises are a notorious fact of life with Ilfochrome and will come as sure as the sun rises. It would be very interesting indeed to learn of who is just going to buy all that mothballed stock at yet another inflated asking price; we would have all moved onto digi post-prod, or leave photography altogether (that's not what I'm doing). And I'm curious, where are the big pro labs churning out so much Ilfochrome that they are making a tidy profit ahead of the crafty Swiss? It's not the tin shed hobbyist buying that stuff. No, it doesn't work like that. Ilford has spoken, written it's own epitaph. To borrow a touching headline, "The rich-hued Ilfochrome era has faded to black". And with that, we're moving on with no time to stop for tears. Thanks for the memories.

 

[PKM-25]

The discourse changes nothing; at best it is heresy. It is not emboldened by fact, but shrouded in conjecture. The fact we do have is the statement by Ilford themselves.
The demand for Ilfochrome (like Kodachrome) is not there and has been diminishing since at least 1999 and more rapidly in recent times, as any of the foibles in the foregoing posts would ably demonstrate. Prices rises are a notorious fact of life with Ilfochrome and will come as sure as the sun rises. It would be very interesting indeed to learn of who is just going to buy all that mothballed stock at yet another inflated asking price; we would have all moved onto digi post-prod, or leave photography altogether (that's not what I'm doing). And I'm curious, where are the big pro labs churning out so much Ilfochrome that they are making a tidy profit ahead of the crafty Swiss? It's not the tin shed hobbyist buying that stuff. No, it doesn't work like that. Ilford has spoken, written it's own epitaph. To borrow a touching headline, "The rich-hued Ilfochrome era has faded to black". And with that, we're moving on with no time to stop for tears. Thanks for the memories.

Don't shoot the messenger ok, there is a reason I spend very little time online anymore, attitudes and a waste of time. I am trying to figure out if I have time to save up several grand to pay for a show or if I need to sell a Leica lens or two to buy a few grand in paper and chemistry in order to properly print my Kodachrome show.

So I am taking this pretty seriously mate, so if the fact that this so called conjecture from a source i HIGHLY respect rubs you the wrong way, I suggest you scale a 5th class lead route up Federation Peak naked....

 

[Renato Tonelli]

I am exploring the possibility of one last Ilfochrome run. Any one in the NYC Metro area interested in joining on a sizeable order let me know... Send me a PM.

 

[richard1500]

Hello everyone, I need to get in McAllen Texas Ilford P-30 chemicals for me to be able to print like 80 Ilfochromes. I don?t want to do it from scannes negatives, they don?t have the liveness that ilfochrome gives me. Please let me know where or how can I get them, B&H only sells them to me directly from the store, They do not ship it!!! I would be so happy if someone gets me the info about this. Richard Groenewold

 

[lxdude]

So I am taking this pretty seriously mate, so if the fact that this so called conjecture from a source i HIGHLY respect rubs you the wrong way, I suggest you scale a 5th class lead route up Federation Peak naked....

In winter, right?

 

[bluejeh]

Hi Richard
Take a look at B&H Home/Photography/Darkroom/Photographic Chemistry/Color Paper Chemistry and select Ilford
You can get the P3 bleach (now called bleach starter) (in 3 parts) 1x2 liters for $132.40; fixer/fixer replenisher in two 5 litre packages for $98.95; P3 Developer - part A 1x5 litres $53.95; part B 1x2 litres $38.50; part C 1x2 litres $29.95; I'm just mentioning prices so that you can see which items I'm specifically referring to.
Then go to Home/Photography/Darkroom/PhotographicEnlarging Paper and select Ilford.
The items I've mentioned are NOT listed as "This item is only available for purchase in our superstore". Thanks. Judy

 

[Renato Tonelli]

Hello everyone, I need to get in McAllen Texas Ilford P-30 chemicals for me to be able to print like 80 Ilfochromes. I don?t want to do it from scannes negatives, they don?t have the liveness that ilfochrome gives me. Please let me know where or how can I get them, B&H only sells them to me directly from the store, They do not ship it!!! I would be so happy if someone gets me the info about this. Richard Groenewold

Freestyle will do a special order and the materiale will be dropped shipped to you.

 

[richard1500]

Great, because I was trying to buy P-30 chemicals, please let me know, can I use a 3 bath processor as the durst for this ones? as I could with the P-30. And if so, do I need to buy all the replenishers as well as the regular ones?

 

[richard1500]

Look, I was reading the technical data about the P-3 process, and it says I need the first wash in the second tank, and the fourth wash in the fifth tank, that means I can only use the P-30 process in my little darkroom:-( As my durst processor only have three tanks!!!

 

[Renato Tonelli]

Richard - I use the Durst Printo (and for 16x20's a CAP40) with no rinses in between steps. The Printo squeegees the print extremely well as it travels from one tank to the next that there is no carry-over contamination and no need for a rinse bath until the end. I seem to recall that with a Jobo drum you would need to rinse in between steps.

 

[Wayne]

This is, if confirmed, indeed a royal bummer, it's not like Ilford Switzerland cordially supported Ilfochrome anyways during the last few years. Here's what I plan on doing:

• Paper can be stored in the freezer for many years according to what I have found in relevant forum postings. So I will stock what I plan on using over the next few years so I can continue to print my favorite slides.
• Chemistry is more short lived according to these same postings but should last for 1-2 years, at least after heavy color corrections.
• Chemistry will be either available after that or I will look into home brewing. There are a few threads here on APUG which describe recipes and refer to further info: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) and (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

It's really time for us slide shooters to put our freezers to use and to boost our knowledge in organic chemistry. I've already stocked up on Fuji Astia 100F and, just in case, Kodak E100VS. This should buy me 5 more years before I either convert to C41 and B&W or just give up photography altogether. It was fun while it lasted.

Not to discourage you but I haven't had luck storing Ilfochrome "many years". I pulled some out of the freezer that was less than 10 years old and it was far beyond help.

 

[Wayne]

So the day has come, maybe, probably, almost certainly. I pretty much quit a few years ago when it became hard as hell to even find the chemicals anymore and the expense was outrageous. There was nowhere left for it to go but away.

Where there's a will, there's a way. I started planning for the demise of Ciba almost a decade ago.
Color neg materials still weren't up to par, but now things have gotten pretty damn good, though
that's no guarantee Kodak won't pull their end of the rug out from under us. Fuji CA papers and RA4 work perfectly well in home dkrm drums etc. To get the best results with Ciba you had to learn
masking; same for color neg printing, though with different tweaks. But the sum cost is far less than
Ciba was, and significantly less than a high-quality scan and Lightjet etc output (at least for serious
large format work). If some of the positive energy was redirected and concentrated on some of these newer products, it might equate to a mini revival of actual home darkroom color enthusiasts.
If everyone just wants to sit on their ass, then they've got their inkjet printers already.

That's something to think about. I've never printed negatives but soon I may have no choice. What better time to start! ;-)

 

[Rudeofus]

Not to discourage you but I haven't had luck storing Ilfochrome "many years". I pulled some out of the freezer that was less than 10 years old and it was far beyond help.

Thanks for your warning, and no I didn't plan on using my frozen stash for that long.

There is a famous folk tale from Mullah Nasrudin about how important/useless it is to plan for what happens in that many years. Look for the tale in this link. Seriously, nobody knows what's going to happen in eight years, and if I have to make colored gum prints in ten years at least my kids will be old enough that I have the necessary time for this. Or we'll enjoy remote controlled model aeroplanes by then ....