The expense of shooting film

pentaxuser · Mar 21, 2023

koraks said:
Yeah, I knew you were going to bring that one up at some point

However he does make a reasonable point in a humorous way. I have stopped following colour neg prices but as a result of Agulliver's post I checked on his list and the prices quoted are for out of stock film

Yes he does mention this but the way things are, do they favour replacement at those prices? I have no confidence that this will be the case with the cheapest of Kodak stock. It does seem that more of the expensive film such as Portra is available

Is this because it isn't selling in the same way due to its price or is Kodak concentrating on its production and now meeting demand more easily? I don't know

As far as ColorPlus is concerned, if its supply is less, given the likely demand, it isn't surprising that retailers are rationing on price. Charge more to ensure that those with the greater desire pay more and get what they want.

So unless there is an imminent increase in supply in ColorPlus then the odds favour the retailers charging more once it is back in stock

It's all very depressing

pentaxuser

Nicholas Lindan · Mar 21, 2023

I miss Kodak darkroom equipment: Enlarging/Projection Ektars; thermometers; safelights (well, maybe not - though my darkroom is festooned with them); graduates; stirring paddles; photoguides ... all going back to the '60's. But even then much of the darkroom equipment that they sold in the 30's was no longer.

Huss · Mar 21, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
$3.40 can be a lot of money and it adds up if you shoot a lot. But for me, for one thing, I don't shoot much.

The other issues, for me, are that it's not just the cost of film. I spend $3-$4 for a gallon of gas, I could be out driving all day getting shots, or in a place I'm not returning too or with lighting that won't repeat itself. I have one chance to get it right. How much is that worth? If I shoot for example expired film or an off brand, will the results be worth it because these other things add to the cost. What about the processing fees or chemical cost if you do develop yourself? If the pictures don't come out right, you've lost not only the cost of the film, but these other expenses, as well as your time. Reliability and consistency are important?

By the way, that's a nice shot. The colors are very quiet and warm.

But that’s the thing. Kodak Aerocolor IV is neither off brand, nor expired. It is fresh Kodak film so your fears are allayed!

cmacd123 · Mar 21, 2023

Huss said:
But that’s the thing. Kodak Aerocolor IV is neither off brand, nor expired. It is fresh Kodak film so your fears are allayed!

But it is Aero Film. Not really intened for stills. Thin base with the posiblity of Light piping. May be slit and perforated by someone other than Kodak. Not in Kodak cassettes. No orange mask so likly some colour errors. Posible IR sensitivity so colours may not be 100% right. (have not seen that one but Areo film often wants to have some iR to cut the haze.)

it IS better than not having colour film. There are apperently 4 enities packing it in 135 cassettes.

don't get me wrong I sometimes use Aero Film, but it is perhaps like a Diesel Car, works but one needs to be aware of the difference.

Huss · Mar 21, 2023

I dunno, I’ve had no issues using it. And I love the colors. So…

Beverly Hills · Mar 21, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Compare that to the cost of the top of the line Nikon or Canon DSLR or the cost of skiing. Ever buy a Super Bowl ticket?

...so let's compare the costs especially if you only bought the tickets to shoot the fly over :

Beverly Hills · Mar 22, 2023

Agulliver said:
When my local brick & mortar shop, a small business without any buying power, got their most recent Color Plus in stock in January 2023 they were selling at £10 per film, which is the highest I've ever seen it here in the UK actually in stock anywhere.

I know it's currently out of stock but AW have it at £8.50 for 24 exp, £10 for 36.
Ag Photo are listing it at £6.99
Boots at £9
Process Supplies £6
Bristol Cameras £9

I know they're not all currently in stock but it sounds more like B&H are gouging than Kodak.

And those prices include 20% VAT

The question I often asked myself is the folowing :
have the films become so expensive because the sales
figures have dropped extremely, or have the sales figures fallen extremely because the films have become so expensive ?

But now the new question arises for me : when the sales figures have finally increased again, and they definitely are,
with the result that prices are now going
up extremely

.........?

Doesn't the logic of the observed exaggerated pricing policy, you may also call this " crazy market phenomenon " , mean
that the sales figures only have to fall again so that the
exessive film prices fall into the abyss?

?

Not really - we all have a inkling that the pricing will then
continue to rise....!

Is it really the case that the required raw materials are extremely difficult to obtain and, bye the way, have meanwhile increased by a factor of 20 ???

Or is it, as is so often the case, an unprecedented management failure for that fundamentally others are
paying the price?

What are we talking about Agulliver ?

you listed the price in the UK, thank you therefore !

Let us say this film isn't exactly the same but it is somewhere in the very near :

and this is the high speed version :

both films had the same price in a double pack. It was avaible a little over ten years ago in some supermarket chains for a long time.
The price ...? around 1,89 bucks ...! = ~ 95 cent a film!

What has happened since then and how much understanding
one actually have for whatever?

Notice : In a market economy, it is not the seller who dictates the price but the other way around : the price is determined by the consumer.

You should never forget this folks !

...have a nice time !

MattKing · Mar 22, 2023

Beverly Hills said:
The question I often asked myself is the folowing :
have the films become so expensive because the sales
figures have dropped extremely, or have the sales figures fallen extremely because the films have become so expensive ?

At its peak, Kodak was manufacturing upwards of 70 master stock rolls a day of Kodacolor…each and every day – enough to make nearly 3.4 million spools each day.
The current volumes are infinitesimal compared to that.
And those volumes meant that they could also manufacture in-house many things that now have to be sourced from others in the far corners of the world, with Kodak being a small volume (i.e. low priority) customer.

koraks · Mar 22, 2023

Beverly Hills said:
Or is it, as is so often the case, an unprecedented management failure for that fundamentally others are
paying the price?

No, it's as usual the story of people trying to understand pricing using what they remember from the first economics 101 class, as they apparently nodded off in further sessions.

More importantly, they do this not only because of a lack of knowledge, but also a deeply ingrained unwillingness to understand what's going on. I suppose the reasoning is "if I keep saying the pricing doesn't make sense, maybe it'll somehow change things".

Finally, virtually nobody with sane ideas about how businesses operate and a view that approaches objectivity tends to post in threads like these. As a result, it remains self-reinforcing chorus of "boohoos".

I get it though. High prices are annoying and frustrating, and one way to deal with that is to talk about it online. In that sense, a thread like this one serves a purpose. It's also cheaper than a psychiatrist. Or buying film.

koraks · Mar 22, 2023

BMbikerider said:
In other words with regard to their RA4 developers and RA4 paper and C41 we are still largely stuffed!

Fuji is pumping out both chemistry and paper. And prices are ridiculously low given the complexity of the product.

madNbad · Mar 22, 2023

Remember, there are environmental restrictions that weren’t in place when film production was at its peak. Chemicals, dyes and many other materials are now considered too toxic leaving the manufacturers looking for replacements.

Beverly Hills · Mar 22, 2023

koraks said:
I get it though. High prices are annoying and frustrating, and one way to deal with that is to talk about it online. In that sense, a thread like this one serves a purpose. It's also cheaper than a psychiatrist. Or buying film.

I've no problem with today's pricing because I started buying my stuff for the next 25 years in April 2004!
The only thing that surprised me is that others saw it years later.
But to be honest I'm a bit annoyed that I did'nt buy much more back then.
And of course what we are experiencing right now is about
market distortions.
Look what I just found on the net looking for sales prices
in Europe because Agulliver reported:

There is no business school necessary to understand that
you as a boss are above the market......!

Beverly Hills · Mar 22, 2023

MattKing said:
At its peak, Kodak was manufacturing upwards of 70 master stock rolls a day of Kodacolor…each and every day – enough to make nearly 3.4 million spools each day.

Yes I know, and this Kodacolor was the best selling film ever!
Avaible in 135-36, 135-24, 135-12, a.s.o.

have a nice day !

BMbikerider · Mar 22, 2023

koraks said:
Fuji is pumping out both chemistry and paper. And prices are ridiculously low given the complexity of the product.

You may consider the price to be ridiculously low, but from experience I have to think differently.

When Kodak supplies of their Ektacolor RA4 developer dried up, I was forced to change over to the equally good Fuji CPRA developer but as the minimum size was for 40 litres working solution I split a pack with a friend who also prints RA4.
The price I paid for the pack we split was around £80 but the same dealer is now selling it at £136. That is over a 50% increase in the timespan of only 4-5 months. Looking at the chemical makeup there is no difference. A similar increas has been applied to the bleach/fix

On the subject of film the situation seems to be a little better. Yes it has gone up in price but for FUJI 200 it is still around 2.5 times what we paid before this mad scramble started. I have found a reasonably reliable supplier of Fuji film (It limits each sale to 5 boxes at a time) but on the box it names it as Fuji 200 NOT Fuji C200.

There is a story going round that it is actually re-boxed Kodak 200 film, but there is no external proof of this. I have 10 boxes but have not developed any at the moment so cannot see any edge markings. All the writing on the box has no mention of Kodak or where it is made.

BMbikerider · Mar 22, 2023

madNbad said:
Remember, there are environmental restrictions that weren’t in place when film production was at its peak. Chemicals, dyes and many other materials are now considered too toxic leaving the manufacturers looking for replacements.

What is your take over the caution over chemicals and dyes being a little bit overstated. When was the last time you heard of anyone being seriously affected? I don't have a wide knowledge on of anyone being seriously affected by the chemical makeup of the developers/bleaches?

Beverly Hills · Mar 22, 2023

Huss said:
I am currently using Aerocolor IV and like it much more than Colorplus 200.
Superb color, extremely fine grain, 40% cheaper than Colorplus!

Are you really sure that this film will be re - produced?

From the point of view on the demand side this film has been completely unnecessary for years.

But there were lots of bulks :

Aerocolor III in the typical and to my knowledge only format

12,7 cm x 30,5 m = click.click.click.click.click
up to 2,5 frames per second !

But today we do it much faster :

Don_ih · Mar 22, 2023

cmacd123 said:
No orange mask so likly some colour errors

Wonder if it's good processed as reversal?

koraks · Mar 22, 2023

Beverly Hills said:
There is no business school necessary to understand that

Assuming that relevant knowledge doesn't help in understanding something is never a good start. But hey, that has never stopped many people from trying.

Alan Edward Klein · Mar 22, 2023

pentaxuser said:
However he does make a reasonable point in a humorous way. I have stopped following colour neg prices but as a result of Agulliver's post I checked on his list and the prices quoted are for out of stock film

Yes he does mention this but the way things are, do they favour replacement at those prices? I have no confidence that this will be the case with the cheapest of Kodak stock. It does seem that more of the expensive film such as Portra is available

Is this because it isn't selling in the same way due to its price or is Kodak concentrating on its production and now meeting demand more easily? I don't know

As far as ColorPlus is concerned, if its supply is less, given the likely demand, it isn't surprising that retailers are rationing on price. Charge more to ensure that those with the greater desire pay more and get what they want.

So unless there is an imminent increase in supply in ColorPlus then the odds favour the retailers charging more once it is back in stock

It's all very depressing

pentaxuser

Until they actually can buy the film at the new prices quoted by the manufacturers, there's no way for them to know their cost or their selling price to us. I think they leave their low prices for old stock on their websites to discourage buyers from going to other sites who actually have film to sell. They're afraid they may lose costumers permanently.

Alan Edward Klein · Mar 22, 2023

Beverly Hills said:
The question I often asked myself is the folowing :
have the films become so expensive because the sales
figures have dropped extremely, or have the sales figures fallen extremely because the films have become so expensive ?

But now the new question arises for me : when the sales figures have finally increased again, and they definitely are,
with the result that prices are now going
up extremely .........?

Doesn't the logic of the observed exaggerated pricing policy, you may also call this " crazy market phenomenon " , mean
that the sales figures only have to fall again so that the
exessive film prices fall into the abyss??

Not really - we all have a inkling that the pricing will then
continue to rise....!

Is it really the case that the required raw materials are extremely difficult to obtain and, bye the way, have meanwhile increased by a factor of 20 ???

Or is it, as is so often the case, an unprecedented management failure for that fundamentally others are
paying the price?
...
one actually have for whatever?

Notice : In a market economy, it is not the seller who dictates the price but the other way around : the price is determined by the consumer.

You should never forget this folks !

...have a nice time !

Both parties have to agree on a price. First, a manufacturer has to cover their costs and then make a profit to stay in business. If their prices are too high becasue no one can afford it anymore or there aren't enough buyers willing to pay the price to cover the product, then they stop producing it. They can't sell it at a loss. This might be why we're seeing certain films being dropped, like Velvia 50 in 4x5 which really upsets me. My last purchase was directly from Japan and I paid around $160 for 20 sheets. That's nuts! I have it squirreled away in the freezer. I expect it to increase in price more than gold. So I might resell it rather than use it.

I don't think film prices are artificially being set higher than before. After all, there's a lot of competition in the film market. They can't get greedy. I think just like eggs and a lot of other things, inflation around the world has raised prices for materials and labor required to produce stuff including film. Blaming chicken egg producers or film manufacturers for higher prices is the wrong discussion.

Alan Edward Klein · Mar 22, 2023

BMbikerider said:
What is your take over the caution over chemicals and dyes being a little bit overstated. When was the last time you heard of anyone being seriously affected? I don't have a wide knowledge on of anyone being seriously affected by the chemical makeup of the developers/bleaches?

Velvia 100 has been discontinued because of some chemical in it found toxic by the American government. Velvia 50 is still OK.

BMbikerider · Mar 22, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
Velvia 100 has been discontinued because of some chemical in it found toxic by the American government. Velvia 50 is still OK.

That says it all!

Huss · Mar 22, 2023

BMbikerider said:
On the subject of film the situation seems to be a little better. Yes it has gone up in price but for FUJI 200 it is still around 2.5 times what we paid before this mad scramble started. I have found a reasonably reliable supplier of Fuji film (It limits each sale to 5 boxes at a time) but on the box it names it as Fuji 200 NOT Fuji C200.

There is a story going round that it is actually re-boxed Kodak 200 film, but there is no external proof of this. I have 10 boxes but have not developed any at the moment so cannot see any edge markings. All the writing on the box has no mention of Kodak or where it is made.

The Fuji 200 will either say Made in USA or Made in Japan on the box. You can make an educated guess as to who makes which one. I am buying fresh Fuji 200 that says Made in Japan on the box.
This is the 3 pack 36exp boxes.

pbromaghin · Mar 22, 2023

From what I understand, current film prices are not so different, adjusted for inflation, as they were 30-50 years ago. 50 years ago I allowed those prices prevent me from taking up photography as a hobby until the crash came just around 2004. I will not let that happen again.

markjwyatt · Mar 22, 2023

pbromaghin said:
From what I understand, current film prices are not so different, adjusted for inflation, as they were 30-50 years ago. 50 years ago I allowed those prices prevent me from taking up photography as a hobby until the crash came just around 2004. I will not let that happen again.

I posted this elsewhere (Mar 8, 2023), and it is relevant:

Ok. mid-60s, Tri-X = $0.95 = 3 quarters and two dimes, 95% silver. Today, 3 quarters and two dimes in silver content at spot price are worth $12.94. At Freestyle, Tri-X, 36 exposures is $12.99. Ergo, in constant silver (real constitutional money, vs. ever inflating paper currency), Tri-X costs the same today as it did in the mid-60s. How much did the average worker make in the mid 1960s? How about today?

The expense of shooting film

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