The end for Kodak?

[Photo Engineer]

Fuji also gets favorable support from their government!

PE

 

[MDR]

PE that's the sad truth the japanese government supports their large companies (other than banks and insurances) whereas the US and European governments pretty much only support the financial and military/arms industries.

Dominik

 

[keithwms]

Fuji also gets favorable support from their government!

PE

What, you don't think the US photo industry has been supported by the US government? Land was one of the wealthiest scientists ever.

But, true enough, if the US wanted to keep Kodak alive and give them a big boost, a big military contract would go a long way, hence my admonition a few dozen posts above.

 

[Aristophanes]

Fuji also gets favorable support from their government!

PE

With regards to film production, I think Fuji's government support is irrelevant now or so minimal as to be a non-factor. Fuji's been dumping film types as fast or faster than Kodak. At least Kodak openly admits to customer demand falling as the cause:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/bw/plusX125.jhtml

In the bigger scheme, customers left film. That's what did Kodak in. A better managed Kodak may have salvaged some heritage production system through cost-shifting from other sources of revenue grown to replaces film use collapse (as Fuji appears to do), but that is the missed opportunity business schools will study.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Government contracts are different than government support!

Think about that one a bit.

PE

 

[Aristophanes]

Government contracts are different than government support!

Think about that one a bit.

PE

I think about it everyday!

It's my job.

I also don't se Fujifilm dumping its pension and medical obligations, unlike Kodak which is, conveniently for management, able to socialize the problems that will cause.

But the Japanese government is not responsible for over a billion customers walking away from film in the last 5 years.

The question is how to keep enough loyalty to the film medium to keep Portra, T-Max, Ektar, and Tri-X rolling? Fighting old battles never resolved cannot help that effort.

 

[keithwms]

Government contracts are different than government support!

Actually... the differences are very, very fine when the rubber hits the road. A government contract is simply a legal vehicle that is configured to allow a govt agency to push funding directly to a company. In this way, the US government heavily subsidizes industries that are part of our military industrial complex. I know because my day job is smack-dab in the middle of that.

Let's discuss it over tea some time; I can't say more here.

Anyway... back to the point. My point was that some sign of long-term support for Kodak, of the sort granted to our auto industry or the large banks could go a long way in helping Kodak buy time to sell off IP and reorganize.

I'd be looking at Kodak's IP for photovoltaics and catalysis (thin-film battery technology), as well as the more obvious military apps.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kodak sold the military contracts driven work years ago to ITT and it was recently re-sold to another group. Perez did it to "concentrate on our core business"! Hmmpt!

Basically, Kodak supplied most of the best surveillance cameras for orbital use in the world, all built here in Rochester. Parts of Hubble came from Kodak. This dried up as NASA contracts and other contracts dried up making the business much smaller. And, the government would never consider Kodak for a bailout. The Japanese government would consider Fuji as they would not want to lose a world name company and line of products.

That is my point.

And yes, next time you get to Rochester, a cup of coffee!

PE

 

[keithwms]

No, you and the missus need to come down here! It's warmer! And we can make some stuff in the lab... get on a train and come down, I;ll raise funds to help support it!

I would like to come up too though.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The old bones are too tired for a long trip Keith!

Besides, I have a workshop in April with work up front to get ready for it!!!

And, I have to finish the book this month and get it to the printer.

Thanks though.

Pe

 

[MDR]

PE so in short the US Gov doesn't give a fig about the US heritage and thousands of employees. And Antonio Perez had the intelligence (business sense)of Kodak's gelatine ressource.

 

[Photo Engineer]

PE so in short the US Gov doesn't give a fig about the US heritage and thousands of employees. And Antonio Perez had the intelligence (business sense)of Kodak's gelatine ressource.

Basically, yes!

And, considering that Perez was on a Presidential committee on "creating jobs" I could extend that thinking of yours to the President. I hate to do that, but that is what it looks like from my POV.



PE

 

[keithwms]

Yes, there seems to be zero initiative in DC to create real jobs. Our current batch of politicians are just sitting back, waiting for the nondurables consumer economy to improve with consumer confidence. Their implied message: if you think the job market is bad, blame yourself for not feeling confident enough to put more on plastic. Meanwhile, we're just pissing away manufacturing capacity and technical talent. Don't get me started

 

[Al Patterson]

Yes, there seems to be zero initiative in DC to create real jobs. Our current batch of politicians are just sitting back, waiting for the nondurables consumer economy to improve with consumer confidence. Their implied message: if you think the job market is bad, blame yourself for not feeling confident enough to put more on plastic. Meanwhile, we're just pissing away manufacturing capacity and technical talent. Don't get me started

DC only creates jobs for lobbyists, federal workers and the like. What the government needs to do is figure out a better way to transition the surplus workers created by "creative destruction" into their next job. Create a set of policies that help those out of work and incentives to corporations to increase hiring.

But, they would rather spew nonsense about "greedy CEOs" on one side, and blather about "job creators" on the other.

Now maybe if the unemployed had better lobbyists, they'd get heard in DC. Until then, you're on your own...

 

[keithwms]

There are many ways our leadership could create incentives for the private sector to hire. It's just not being done. And from my perspective, a lot of the trouble derives from the inability of our leadership to lift the cloud of uncertainty with regard to big economic issues like the debt ceiling, payroll taxes and healthcare mandates. The current fiscal approach is very much focused on bringing the housing market back online, with the belief that once that stabilizes, consumer confidence will go back up.

 

[Al Patterson]

There are many ways our leadership could create incentives for the private sector to hire. It's just not being done. And from my perspective, a lot of the trouble derives from the inability of our leadership to lift the cloud of uncertainty with regard to big economic issues like the debt ceiling, payroll taxes and healthcare mandates. The current fiscal approach is very much focused on bringing the housing market back online, with the belief that once that stabilizes, consumer confidence will go back up.

True, but consider this. As the boomers retire, just who is going to buy up all of their houses? There aren't enough Gen X or Gen Y out there to snap them all up quickly, and the housing market will likely take years to work off the current glut.

And, and get somewhat back on topic, imagine what will likely happen in Rochester when a large number of Kodak employees get laid off during the resructuring or liquidation of the film business, and some of them eventually default on THEIR house loans.

It is going to get worse before it gets better.

I'd like to see Tri-X survive, but I could live with Ilford products if there was no longer a Kodak product I have used over the years.

 

[keithwms]

And, and get somewhat back on topic, imagine what will likely happen in Rochester when a large number of Kodak employees get laid off during the resructuring or liquidation of the film business, and some of them eventually default on THEIR house loans.

Which is why I think leadership in NY might (or should) take interest and try to steer some relief toward Kodak.

Kodak is a very important American brand... I doubt very seriously that it will go away completely. The question is how long and painful the reorg will be. With appropriate Federal assistance, it could be quick and (mostly) painless. Now, I am a card-carrying, free-market Libertarian, but even I think that at some point we have to think at the level of survival.... survival of American jobs and intellectual property. I see a generational crisis in American sci & tech, and it's high time that someone in DC paid attention.

 

[BrianShaw]

But as I said earlier my real concern is for the employees, and the loss of a very important American scientific institution.

Yes, it's a shame. Another part of our loss of scientific, engineering, and manufacturing capabilities. Sad and scary.

... and this is happening in other venues also. Did you hear that one of the two American Hot Pocket manufacturing facilities is laying off 100 workers? Sales are down. Potentially the demise of a very important American culinary institution.

 

[keithwms]

Hmm first, instant film, and now instant food... a harrowing trend....

 

[Photo Engineer]

There was a thread a while back in which PE indicated he could make Tri-X

My concern is for TMX and TMY-2, which are substantially different than Ilford's Delta films for small format work.

But as I said earlier my real concern is for the employees, and the loss of a very important American scientific institution.

I cannot make those films.

I can make an emulsion close to what is in those films, but sensitizing them properly is beyond my reach. See the thread I started on the 8th of Jan. on this very topic.

Making the emulsion is one thing. Sensitizing and coating is another!

On another topic, Keith should remember that Perez is on the President's jobs creation committee! Isn't that ironic? There must be some message in that!

PE

 

[MDR]

PE what it shows it that Mr. Perez would have the necessary connections to save Kodak but doesn't use them. A recent study shows that CEOs and politicians are often egoistical to the point of beeing sociopaths and often act to their companies/countries detriment because they can't accept the simple fact that they make mistakes and are not gods. What politicians seem to forget is that dreams and innovations was was made the US and some other countries great of course plundering ressources from other countries and enslaving their population helped too.

I am a non smoker never started, but as soon as I saw the demise of the Marlboro man I knew the US would go downhill the Marlboro man was to me as an european all that symbolised the US (excluding the health issue) and Kodak would be another symbol of the US if Kodak falls it's a sign for the complete downfall of the US manufacturing industry (except military). Apple and similars companies create good innovations and have them build outside the US. The US and Europe should look at their past and learn from it (Stopping wars would help the money they cost could be used to create/help to keep jobs for both soldiers, workers and simple employees)

Dominik

 

[SilverGlow]

I see two types here:

Type I cries out that film is dying, and will soon be dead.

Type II cries out that film is not dying, and that Type I people are silly and wrong.

Both types are wrong, and both have turned this into religion.

The truth lies somewhere between what Type I believes and what Type II believe.

I personally thing film is on the decline and will continue to decline, but not to the point of absolute death. No, it will survive as a boutique industry, where 2-3 makers will survive and continue to offer film related products; although those products will be a subset of what is offered today.

I dislike both types; the Type I and IIs as mostly over emotional blow hards full of anecdotal opinions and very little facts.

 

[keithwms]

On another topic, Keith should remember that Perez is on the President's jobs creation committee! Isn't that ironic? There must be some message in that!

PE

Yeah. Great choice, right? Well maybe Immelt will give him a job.

 

[BrianShaw]

... it's a sign for the complete downfall of the US manufacturing industry (except military). ...

Correction: INCLUDING the military.

 

[BrianShaw]

The truth lies somewhere between what Type I believes and what Type II believe.

It is possible that only history will determine what the "truth" is or isn't. And even that cannot be guaranteed.