The Challenge of Creating Large Alternative Prints

Davec101 · Aug 25, 2010

I thought I would share my experience with printing large alternative process prints. After many late and sleepless nights I finally successfully printed today a cyanotype measuring 34x27 inches (approx 90x70cm) that I am happy with (see final image, 10x8 example on the right). I suppose on refection it has taken some 8 years to get to this stage as I always wanted to print this large but early on I was limited by my resources. The jump from 10x8 inches to 20x16 was a considerable challenge, it took almost three months to learn how to successfully coat the paper this size without any surface imperfections. The jump to 34x27 was similarly challenging, again in terms of coating, this larger size is 9 times the surface area of a 10x8 print, other hurdles included finding a suitable paper that would take enough sensitiser without creating paper flaws, sourcing developing trays, printing negatives that size without loss of detail in the final print. I am now limited by the paper size which I print with as I can only obtain it in 39x27 (100x70cm), although I really dont intend on going much further.

The next process I intend to print this large is a kallitype toned with platinum and then finally a platinum/palladium print, I am sure there will be as many hurdles that will need to be overcome however I am looking forward to trying.

It would be good to hear from other members experiences printing this size and larger.

After Coating

Before Exposure

During Exposure

Developing the print

Final Print (34x27 on left -10x8inch on right hand side)

Loris Medici · Aug 25, 2010

Nice work Dave.

I think cyanotype would be the easiest; since it isn't much willing to go inside the paper. (I mean stays there longer, giving you more time between passes...) I anticipate coating (... say...) pop palladium would be much harder!

See Isabel Muoz video in youtube: She uses extremely large brushes, and (hint! hint!) doesn't put - all the volume of - the sensitizer onto the paper while coating; she uses the sensitizer absorbed into the brush instead, and recharge the brush as it dries. (Yes, not a precise method - but it definitely works, no? Her works speaks for themselves...) If I'm not mistaking, she was printing pt/pd at sizes in excess of 100cm!

Regards,
Loris.

P.S. For large trays, we use chipboard or plywood or mdf (albeit arcylic would be a much chicer option!), where the edges are sealed with silicone and all the surfaces are coated with epoxy paint. Very cost effective and doable with few tools and very little carpentry knowledge...

Pinholemaster · Aug 25, 2010

Stunning. Congratulations. Just brilliant.

Bob Carnie · Aug 25, 2010

Right on Dave , looks beautiful.

Davec101 · Aug 25, 2010

Loris Medici said:
Nice work Dave.

I think cyanotype would be the easiest; since it isn't much willing to go inside the paper. (I mean stays there longer, giving you more time between passes...) I anticipate coating (... say...) pop palladium would be much harder!

See Isabel Muoz video in youtube: She uses extremely large brushes, and (hint! hint!) doesn't put - all the volume of - the sensitizer onto the paper while coating; she uses the sensitizer absorbed into the brush instead, and recharge the brush as it dries. (Yes, not a precise method - but it definitely works, no? Her works speaks for themselves...) If I'm not mistaking, she was printing pt/pd at sizes in excess of 100cm!

Regards,
Loris.

P.S. For large trays, we use chipboard or plywood or mdf (albeit arcylic would be a much chicer option!), where the edges are sealed with silicone and all the surfaces are coated with epoxy paint. Very cost effective and doable with few tools and very little carpentry knowledge...

Hi Loris

Thanks for mentioning Isabel Muoz, it was interesting watching her preparation and coating method. It looks like she is printing 20x24" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gmVZYwvBmg @ about 6 mins 45 seconds ) Pre humidifying the paper( have been learning about this lately and has led to significant gains in dmax and shadow density).The method of coating is quite unusual for platinum, it looks like she has a trough of platinum/palladium sensitiser that she just dips into when needed, very extravagant

My trays are custom made and unfortunately quite expensive but they work well, when I can afford it I will upgrade my print washer to 40x30 as it will save time and water. Oh yeah I would also like a tray rocker, just one mind you

R Shaffer · Aug 25, 2010

Wow. That's an impressive print. It's hard to tell, but the big one seems to have a richer tone than the 8x10.

Well done.

Ben Altman · Aug 25, 2010

Neat!

I'm headed the same direction, although much of my work is accepting of imperfections, so perhaps I'm setting the bar a little lower...

I've installed a bigger vacuum frame and enlarged the bank of UV tubes, so can do about 30 x 40 inches. But of course my coating station, sinks, trays etc. are too small now...

I'm about to do some experiments with an airbrush for coating - has anyone tried this? With a small paint cup I don't think I'll waste much solution.

Also trying some thin papers - if anyone has hints for dealing with wrinkling during coating I'd love to hear them...

What paper are you using, Dave? And yes, humidifying on a screen over warm water (before coating and after drying) really seems to help to get repeatable results and even coating/exposure - with Ziatype, anyway.

Best, Ben

Loris Medici · Aug 25, 2010

Hi Dave,

Davec said:
...
Thanks for mentioning Isabel Muoz, it was interesting watching her preparation and coating method. It looks like she is printing 20x24" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gmVZYwvBmg @ about 6 mins 45 seconds ) Pre humidifying the paper( have been learning about this lately and has led to significant gains in dmax and shadow density).The method of coating is quite unusual for platinum, it looks like she has a trough of platinum/palladium sensitiser that she just dips into when needed, very extravagant

Yes, the print in the video is smallish(!), but I have seen pt/pd prints of hers in Istanbul and they were huge! (~ 1x1.5m and so...)

To my knowing pre-mixed sensitizer keeps well as long as it's protected from harmful contamination. (And I don't see a reason for the paper and brush contaminates the sensitizer...) Therefore, maybe that's not so much extravagant. Especially if you print in batches, like 8-10 prints per session, for instance... (Thinking that you'll need something like at least 11-12ml per 20x24" print, the sensitizer volume seen in the trough shouldn't be too much.)

Davec said:
My trays are custom made and unfortunately quite expensive but they work well, when I can afford it I will upgrade my print washer to 40x30 as it will save time and water. Oh yeah I would also like a tray rocker, just one mind you

Good luck with the upgrade! Nice work again...

Regards,
Loris.

Loris Medici · Aug 25, 2010

Ben Altman said:
...
I'm about to do some experiments with an airbrush for coating - has anyone tried this? With a small paint cup I don't think I'll waste much solution.
...

Ben, I definitely wouldn't use an airbrush for coating; you'd be risking to inhale heavy metal salts (and maybe more importantly: oxalate - which is very harsh to mucous membrane in our mouth, throat and lungs) and contaminate your workplace!

Regards,
Loris.

Solarize · Aug 25, 2010

Seeing the larger print next to the 8x10 really gives an impressive indication of scale!

I've gone up to 16x20 successfully since taking your workshop. With limited testing I did find that pumping up the humidity in the room gave a better coat. I've been looking on ebay for a dedicated humidifier.

Is the print on Platine?

Watching the video makes me wish I could speak, or at least understand Spanish. What an incredible number of test prints she had scattered about the place.. and all of that sensitiser!

Cheers,
Ciaran

Ben Altman · Aug 25, 2010

Thanks Loris - you are right, I don't want to inhale that stuff! In fact I don't even use blown air to dry coated paper because I suspect it blows sensitizer dust around.
I thought I might try the airbrush out of doors at night, and wearing a face mask, just to see if it's worth pursuing. Would have to get some pretty good results to justify building a dedicated spray-booth set-up...

Best, Ben

Ian Grant · Aug 25, 2010

Loris Medici said:
Ben, I definitely wouldn't use an airbrush for coating; you'd be risking to inhale heavy metal salts (and maybe more importantly: oxalate - which is very harsh to mucous membrane in our mouth, throat and lungs) and contaminate your workplace!

Regards,
Loris.

Back in the 70's & 80's I used to coat silver gelatin emulsion with a spray gun, in rather a large darkroom (could turn a long wheel base van in it) with very good extraction, but I wore an airline respirator fed by a compressor isolated from the darkroom & drawing its air from the other side of the building.

Loris is right about the dangers, but it could be done if you made a good safe fume cupboard but an airbrush would be to difficult for anything more than about 7"x5" as the spray area is quite small.

Ian

Ben Altman · Aug 25, 2010

Thanks Ian, good information.
I don't want to deflect this thread from the OP's very interesting topic. I'll report back in a new thread if I figure something out.

Ben

Loris Medici · Aug 25, 2010

I don't think it's extremely hard to coat large paper - at least so with iron processes and after some experience. OTOH, I must admit some really suck with the brush; I know that well from experience with several (but not too much!) workshop participants... The key (to me) is to be calm, swift and "gentle" - *all together / at the same time*. Cyanotype (and a relatively cheap paper!) is a great teacher there, people will be less inclined to panic with cheap materials + cyanotype doesn't get absorbed too quickly into the paper. (= A little more forgiving in that aspect...)

Now, if you really want to know what hard is, try to do a perfectly even gum dichromate coat using a strong & dark pigment (such as phtalo blue) on large (full imperial sheet, for instance) paper - that's HARD in each and every literal sense!

Regards,
Loris.

donbga · Aug 25, 2010

Davec said:
I thought I would share my experience with printing large alternative process prints. After many late and sleepless nights I finally successfully printed today a cyanotype measuring 34x27 inches (approx 90x70cm) that I am happy with (see final image,

Thanks for sharing your work Dave. Very nice.

Can you share some details about your printing setup?

Looks like you have T8 BLB fluorescent tubes and some kind of vacuum easel.

Thanks,

Don Bryant

Davec101 · Aug 26, 2010

Don Bryant said:
Thanks for sharing your work Dave. Very nice.

Can you share some details about your printing setup?

Looks like you have T8 BLB fluorescent tubes and some kind of vacuum easel.

Thanks,

Don Bryant

HI Don

The picture below gives a better idea of the setup. The exposure system is a bank of 10 4ft blb tubes. The vaccum unit is a standalone bed which has a custom frame built around it. A 40x30 unit standalone unit is a rare beast to find in this country as they stopped making them this size some time ago, i was lucky to find it. Edwards Engineering will make you one with an exposure system installed for around $6500. I prefer a standalone unit to an all in expsosure system as one is able to dictate the height of BLB tubes, whereas the later is usually a fixed light source that i have had problems with in the past.

Davec101 · Aug 26, 2010

Loris Medici said:
Hi Dave,

Yes, the print in the video is smallish(!), but I have seen pt/pd prints of hers in Istanbul and they were huge! (~ 1x1.5m and so...)

To my knowing pre-mixed sensitizer keeps well as long as it's protected from harmful contamination. (And I don't see a reason for the paper and brush contaminates the sensitizer...) Therefore, maybe that's not so much extravagant. Especially if you print in batches, like 8-10 prints per session, for instance... (Thinking that you'll need something like at least 11-12ml per 20x24" print, the sensitizer volume seen in the trough shouldn't be too much.)

Good luck with the upgrade! Nice work again...

Regards,
Loris.

Loris Medici said:
I don't think it's extremely hard to coat large paper - at least so with iron processes and after some experience. OTOH, I must admit some really suck with the brush; I know that well from experience with several (but not too much!)
Regards,
Loris.

I am sure she is proficient in coating and developing very large platinum prints, she has a nice studio to work in. I had a joint exhibition last year with well known French photographer, Nancy Wilson-Pajic. She produces extremely large cyanotypes, almost 100 inches in width (around 2.5 meters in length) they were photograms which makes things slightly less of an ordeal as you obviously don’t require a vacuum frame or similar size negative. There were really quite stunning

Coating large papers like Platine is not so bad, as like you say, the absorption is quite slow and you have time to correct any surface imperfections, however I have always coated with a rod and some papers I use will take up sensitiser very quickly, for one particular type of paper it required 21ml of solution and was absorbed in two passes, now this is quite tricky to coat without any flaws in the coating.

The main issue with creating very large platinum/palladium prints is the costs involved. These are quite significant and I would estimate that you would have to coat at least 10 prints of the size we are talking about (upwards of 40x30inchs) to become proficient, thus requiring quite a sizeable investment by the printer. Also remember to factor in the cost of developer/clearing solution one will use which is by a factor of a least 6.

Its not for the faint hearted, when I am printing in platinum for other photographers I will account for at least a 1 in 4 failure rate, this would inevitably increase the larger you go, especially when you have large expanses of white in the image which can sometimes be effected by ‘the black plague’. In the next week or so I will be printing the same size as the cyanotype in kalitype (toned with platinum) to lessen the learning curve of printing that size in platinum as the sensitiser coats similar to platinum/palladium, albeit with a bit more tween in the Kalitype. Will post the results on here or on my blog.

Loris Medici · Aug 26, 2010

An option would be practicing with tinted water also by adding a little gum arabic into it - in order to slightly increase the specific gravity of the solution, for better emulation of the real sensitizer... (Still not cheap though; paper cost also is pretty significant!)

Good luck,
Loris.

Davec said:
...
The main issue with creating very large platinum/palladium prints is the costs involved. These are quite significant and I would estimate that you would have to coat at least 10 prints of the size we are talking about (upwards of 40x30inchs) to become proficient, thus requiring quite a sizeable investment by the printer. Also remember to factor in the cost of developer/clearing solution one will use which is by a factor of a least 6.

Its not for the faint hearted, when I am printing in platinum for other photographers I will account for at least a 1 in 4 failure rate, this would inevitably increase the larger you go, especially when you have large expanses of white in the image which can sometimes be effected by ‘the black plague’. In the next week or so I will be printing the same size as the cyanotype in kalitype (toned with platinum) to lessen the learning curve of printing that size in platinum as the sensitiser coats similar to platinum/palladium, albeit with a bit more tween in the Kalitype. Will post the results on here or on my blog.

donbga · Aug 26, 2010

Davec said:
HI Don

The picture below gives a better idea of the setup. The exposure system is a bank of 10 4ft blb tubes.

I was a bit surprised to see the BLB bulbs vs BL. Are those 40 watt tubes?

I've been thinking of building a new exposure unit using Phillips 40W T12s-350nm BL 4 ft. tubes and was curious. Looks like a nice setup.

That is a large vacuum easel. I've not found one that large, though smaller Nuarcs are fairly common.

Best regards,

Don

Loris Medici · Aug 26, 2010

Don, if you can find them, Dead Link Removed are perfect. (Maybe we're talking about the same bulbs, I'm not sure. All I know /10 series peak at 360nm, not 350...)

Regards,
Loris.

Don Bryant said:
...
I've been thinking of building a new exposure unit using Phillips 40W T12s-350nm BL 4 ft. tubes and was curious. Looks like a nice setup.
...

sanking · Aug 26, 2010

Don Bryant said:
I was a bit surprised to see the BLB bulbs vs BL. Are those 40 watt tubes?

I've been thinking of building a new exposure unit using Phillips 40W T12s-350nm BL 4 ft. tubes and was curious. Looks like a nice setup.

That is a large vacuum easel. I've not found one that large, though smaller Nuarcs are fairly common.

Best regards,

Don

I have switched BL and BLB in my 14 tube X 48" light bank and there was virtually no difference in exposure time with either carbon or the iron processes. Most of the literature suggests that BL tubes print much faster but that has not been my experience.

Got lucky with my large 38" X 58" vacuum frame. Bought it for $90 on ebay, shipping included, and it was shipped by air from California. Someone lost their a*& on that one because it is big and heavy and most have cost a lot to ship by air.

Unlike the set up pictured here I keep the light unit horizontal and the vacuum is on rollers which is pushed in and out of the light path.

Sandy King

sanking · Aug 26, 2010

Davec said:
The next process I intend to print this large is a kallitype toned with platinum and then finally a platinum/palladium print, I am sure there will be as many hurdles that will need to be overcome however I am looking forward to trying.

It would be good to hear from other members experiences printing this size and larger.

Attached is a 16X34" gold toned vandyke that I made with a bank of BL tubes. To coat the paper I used a 4" Richeson brush, and was very generous in the amount of solution needed.

I have a fairly small work area and use single tray processing for all large prints. This is the longest print in one direction that I have made but I have made a lot of 20X24" kallitypes (palladium toned) and palladium prints.

You might want to try vandyke rather than kallitype since the processing has less steps and if you use digital negatives you build the contrast into the negative. You can also tone vandykes with palladium or platinum but the gold toned is IMO more distinctive.

If my memory is correct this is one of the prints that Don Bryant saw a few weeks ago when we got together in Atlanta.

Sandy

Davec101 · Aug 27, 2010

sanking said:
Got lucky with my large 38" X 58" vacuum frame. Bought it for $90 on ebay, shipping included, and it was shipped by air from California. Someone lost their a*& on that one because it is big and heavy and most have cost a lot to ship by air.

Sandy King

Thats a real find sometimes you can just get lucky. I read recently that Stan Klimek recently purchased a 5K Olite with its separate AL53 power supply, plus vacuum frame, plus compressor for the vacuum and integrator for 350.00 dollars!

sanking said:
Attached is a 16X34" gold toned vandyke that I made with a bank of BL tubes. To coat the paper I used a 4" Richeson brush, and was very generous in the amount of solution needed.

I have a fairly small work area and use single tray processing for all large prints. This is the longest print in one direction that I have made but I have made a lot of 20X24" kallitypes (palladium toned) and palladium prints.

You might want to try vandyke rather than kallitype since the processing has less steps and if you use digital negatives you build the contrast into the negative. You can also tone vandykes with palladium or platinum but the gold toned is IMO more distinctive.

If my memory is correct this is one of the prints that Don Bryant saw a few weeks ago when we got together in Atlanta.

Sandy

Thats great advice thanks, I believe you wrote an article on VanDyke didn't you? i shall have to re-read it. Do you use a one shot platinum/palladium toner or do you re-use it. I would imagine a one shot is going use quite a fair amount of toner for a 34x27" print, from my recollection i used 100ml for a 16x12 inch palladium toned kallitype which was then discarded. The attached print looked good, well done.

Colin Graham · Aug 27, 2010

Great print Sandy, that's wonderful.

This might just be me, I typically have a harder time with cyanotype coatings than kallitypes so wouldn't be surprised if thing got easier when you move into iron/silver/pt printing processes. Even though the cyanotype coating seems to go on well, there always seems to be some density changes in the 'blacks'. This could just be because I'm using papers sized for gum though.

My BL box can only print as large as 16x20 but with even a 2" richeson it wasn't noticeably more difficult than coating a small kallitype. I'm really curious to try a really large print though like in the OP- that sunflower is wonderful.

sanking · Aug 27, 2010

Davec said:
Thats great advice thanks, I believe you wrote an article on VanDyke didn't you? i shall have to re-read it. Do you use a one shot platinum/palladium toner or do you re-use it. I would imagine a one shot is going use quite a fair amount of toner for a 34x27" print, from my recollection i used 100ml for a 16x12 inch palladium toned kallitype which was then discarded. The attached print looked good, well done.

Actually I wrote an article on kallitype which is at both unblinkingeye and the alternative photography site. I am currently writing an article on vandyke, specifically with gold toning, and have about finished it but it is not yet available.

I use all of the toners one shot for reasons of consistency. Generally I find that you need about 30-50 ml of solution per 8X10" area to tone to completion with a noble metal toner. So the large 16X34" print required close to 200ml of toning solution. Since you are using a very small amount of solution with the one-shot method a flat bottom tray is recommended.

Sandy

The Challenge of Creating Large Alternative Prints

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