The affordable Leica is never going to happen..

[Huss]

Originally posted by "Overrank"

Stephan Daniel, global director of the photo product division at Leica was interviewed in this Silvergrain Classics video that’s just come out -

He is very non-committal about a new film camera from Leica. He is specifically asked about a cheaper film camera, and possibly compacts.

He says that “a budget M rangefinder is a used one” (around 1:01:30) which leads on to a discussion about the continued availability of servicing of (for example) M3s, M2s, M4s because of the similarity to current models.

On compacts there’s some discussion about the cost of the tooling necessary to make such a thing, adding that Leica are aware of the increased demand and that they do get requests for a new Minilux, but again nothing really committal (more the opposite really).

 

[mshchem]

Leica is ultra high end. It's never going to be an aspirational thing like it was pre digital/iPhone onslaught. As far as used, that's a bit far fetched going forward. Leica doesn't make enough new film cameras today to supply any kind of "inexpensive option" in the future. The current offerings analog cameras and any M lenses will just keep going up in price.

The digital stuff may be amazing but like all computers eventually become a paperweight.

I have a M6ttl, very happy with it. New Leica lenses are beautiful, way too expensive for me.

I would love to win a lottery, buy a vintage Austin Healey and drive around a new Leica and a couple lenses. I guess that it's aspirational after all.

 

[Sirius Glass]

He says that “a budget M rangefinder is a used one” ==> “a budget Hasselblad is a used one”

 

[Patrick Robert James]

When I first heard about the "budget" Leica months ago I figured it might be a ploy to raise the price on the current models. You know, the ol' Leica price bump whenever they change anything. They would then sell the "budget' model for the current price of what is available now.

I kind of wish I would have snagged an a la carte back when they were like $2500, or an M7 when they were new and not that expensive (relative to now).

Leica wants to keep making digital cameras that will eventually crap out, like all the ones they made with sensor corrosion... Truth is digital cameras today are as good as they ever need to be for most people. That is why the whole industry is hitting the skids.

I'm surprised Voigtlander doesn't come out with a new rangefinder that is better than the Bessas. They could charge a couple grand for them if they were good enough. Maybe a rehash of the Zeiss Ikon with a couple things changed.

 

[Pieter12]

And so? Does Leica need to make an "affordable" film or digital camera? They seem to be doing quite fine with their business model as far as I can tell.

 

[faberryman]

I would rather see Leica reduce the price of its expensive cameras than make an inexpensive camera. Although it is not a perfect metaphor, it is like wanting Range Rover to make an inexpensive Range Rover. They could make an inexpensive Range Rover, but it would be a like a Hyundai, except more expensive than a Hyundai, and you wouldn't want it.

 

[removed account4]

I heard there is going to be a boycott soon. supposedly there are schemes of boycotting specialty companies..
like some fashion clothing company that is being boycotted because they only make clothes for people who are Size "0"
and beauty companies that do not have regular people instead of supermodels / beautiful people in their ads...
it only makes sense that people boycott these boutique camera companies that cater to 1 segment of the market share
you know, the ones that can afford their cameras ...
gotta check snapchat to see if there is a boycott to put this fat-cat company over a barrel to
to be more inclusive of people who can't even afford a used disposable fuji.
and next the film companies I think film should be like $1 a roll !

==. added later ==
I always thought affordable Leica was an oxymoron you know
like civil servant, jumbo shrimp &c ...

 

[mshchem]

Money is worthless too.

 

[Arthurwg]

The "budget" Leica is a Barnack LTM.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Nothing new.

It is hard to find people working by hands even in cheaper Portugal. No new film cameras ain't going to happen because of it. Leica or else.
Nor rangefinders are this popular. Leica label is, rangefinders are not. Nobody was buying Bessas at the end.
Same for new cheap film cameras. All new and cheap which is possible now is Ilford multi use camera. As soon as you will try to make something more complicated, cost will skyrocket.

Also, Leica is boutique sales oriented product. And its bunch of... like in video has ditched those who are into photography without boutique price tag. Years ago.

And to be honest, here is zero need for new film cameras. Just very few want new, because even Leica dude knows where are very many used film cameras which works and more reliable than film Ms.

 

[Lachlan Young]

USD 5-10K is a realistic price range for a new high end mechanical camera + lens (in terms of percentage of average income). It all comes back to the difference between people who use a camera or two to make work and those who take pictures in order to play around with cameras.

 

[Auer]

No one would buy an affordable Leica

 

[madNbad]

You can buy a Hyundai Elantra for about 20 grand or a Porsche Panamera for a hundred. Both seat four and will carry the groceries home. Hyundai may strive to make a car equal to the Porsche and may even surpass its performance but it's still a Hyundai. The new Sony Alpha 1 will most likely knock the socks off an SL2 but like Hyundai, it doesn't have that red dot cachet and the myth that goes with it. Leica has survived enough mistakes on the strength of their lenses and the loyalty of the buyers. Porsche built just over 272 thousand cars in 2020. Hyundai built 1.6 million. Leica knows its' market and will continue to build the cameras they want to.

 

[wiltw]

He says that “a budget M rangefinder is a used one” ==> “a budget Hasselblad is a used one”

View attachment 279254​

Similarly, a budget Ferrari is a used one! The Dino was probably the closest to one in history.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

USD 5-10K is a realistic price range for a new high end mechanical camera + lens (in terms of percentage of average income). It all comes back to the difference between people who use a camera or two to make work and those who take pictures in order to play around with cameras.

These days next to none are using of mechanical film cameras to make a work.
Most of film Leica I knew personally are not into work but into play. Not to mention forums warriors.

G7 country average income is:
"As of January 2020, the average Canadian salary in 2020 was $1,050.59 per week for employees across the country – which means that the annual average salary for full-time employees is just over $54,630 per year."
https://www.jobillico.com/blog/en/the-average-canadian-salary-in-2020/

Where is no way average Canadian could afford boutique priced Leica at 5-10K USD for just one camera and one lens.
And next to nobody needs work with those cameras in Canada. It is all about hipsta hipe.

 

[Sirius Glass]

No one would buy an affordable Leica

Yes, I believe you are right.

 

[Pieter12]

Similarly, a budget Ferrari is a used one! The Dino was probably the closest to one in history.

But none of those "budget" cars or cameras is "budget" to repair or maintain. I remember once talking to a BMW independent mechanic about someone who had found a great deal on a 5-year-old 7-series. The mechanic had to remind him that he still had to pay for parts and service of a $75,000 car.

 

[ciniframe]

Define 'budget Leica', or for that manner, budget anything. What is 'an inexpensive' camera? A Holga? Or a used Nikkormat with a 50 f2 lens. The Nikkormat can be found used/working for $100, a bargain, while the Holga 120n is $40 new, and, only worth that $40 if it can do what you envision. I don't know, maybe your Michael Kenna or David Burnett. Both do fine work with a Holga 120n (but or course both also work with much higher end cameras also.

 

[wiltw]

These days next to none are using of mechanical film cameras to make a work.
Most of film Leica I knew personally are not into work but into play. Not to mention forums warriors.

G7 country average income is:
"As of January 2020, the average Canadian salary in 2020 was $1,050.59 per week for employees across the country – which means that the annual average salary for full-time employees is just over $54,630 per year."
https://www.jobillico.com/blog/en/the-average-canadian-salary-in-2020/

Where is no way average Canadian could afford boutique priced Leica at 5-10K USD for just one camera and one lens.
And next to nobody needs work with those cameras in Canada. It is all about hipsta hipe.

And it is written about photojournalists from Life magazine learning of the Nikon lens performance and adopting Nikon rangefinders as a more affordable alternative..the rest is history.

 

[wiltw]

But none of those "budget" cars or cameras is "budget" to repair or maintain. I remember once talking to a BMW independent mechanic about someone who had found a great deal on a 5-year-old 7-series. The mechanic had to remind him that he still had to pay for parts and service of a $75,000 car.

A coworker of mine owned a Dino 246. I would give him a ride to the office after picking him up from the mechanic where he would drop off his car for service; then a return trip in the afternoon. I remember the cost incurred for a simple valve adjustment, because the engine had to be taken off its mounts to get to the valves.

 

[Pieter12]

A coworker of mine owned a Dino 246. I would give him a ride to the office after picking him up from the mechanic where he would drop off his car for service; then a return trip in the afternoon. I remember the cost incurred for a simple valve adjustment, because the engine had to be taken off its mounts to get to the valves.

And then there were some GM cars from the 70's with V8 engines that had to be lifted to get to the back spark plugs. And in those days, plugs were changed every 15,000 miles.

 

[Pieter12]

Define 'budget Leica', or for that manner, budget anything. What is 'an inexpensive' camera? A Holga? Or a used Nikkormat with a 50 f2 lens. The Nikkormat can be found used/working for $100, a bargain, while the Holga 120n is $40 new, and, only worth that $40 if it can do what you envision. I don't know, maybe your Michael Kenna or David Burnett. Both do fine work with a Holga 120n (but or course both also work with much higher end cameras also.

Yes, budget is inexpensive. It has nothing to do with performance, it has to do with money.

 

[Jim Jones]

Most of the Leica gear bought new that I used regularly cost less than the film it consumed. That makes it more affordable than the film.

 

[Lachlan Young]

And it is written about photojournalists from Life magazine learning of the Nikon lens performance and adopting Nikon rangefinders as a more affordable alternative..the rest is history.

Not really - at least from his account, David Douglas Duncan simply found the 50mm and longer Nikkors to be better than the Leitz glass he had available to him at the time. From what I can tell from the available material today, at that point in time the feeling seemed to veer towards Leica having the better cameras (for the end user) and Contax the better lenses. Nikon essentially split that difference by making their lenses available in L39 - and by giving DDD an appointment to try out the lenses (apparently Canon were too busy to let him visit and try their lenses). I don't think price ever came into it - but performance did.

 

[Huss]

And it is written about photojournalists from Life magazine learning of the Nikon lens performance and adopting Nikon rangefinders as a more affordable alternative..the rest is history.

Yes, history has shown that Leica is still successfully making and selling rangefinder cameras, while Nikon is not.