The 100 most influential people in the photography industry

[chuckroast]

OK, but nobody's talking about enforcing diversity. That's politics.

The choice is between limiting diversity and having diversity. Having diversity is looking out the window and seeing what's out there, instead of looking inside and just seeing people that look like you.

But since I'm one of the few — if not only — Black person here, maybe I shouldn't be commenting on this.

I would suggest that the real choice is between seeking excellence first or diversification first (and I am specifically not referring to the politics of all this, but rather the artistic results).

 

[Alex Benjamin]

would suggest that the real choice is between seeking excellence first or diversification first

That is not a choice. If you're looking for excellence, either you're looking at everybody, or you're just looking at certain people—either those who look like you, or those you think are the only ones capable of excellence (who, as it happens, often look like you, isn't that funny how that works).

One doesn't seek diversification. Diversification is what you see when you look out the window. It's not something you look for, it's the real world. If you don't see it, it's either because you don't want to see it, or because some people have worked very hard to make it so you cannot see it, or because — as it happened with those who made the list — you think you're looking out the window while all this time you're looking at a mirror.

(Little Szarkowski reference in that last sentence so we can keep it about photography and not get into politics ).

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Does being left handed count?

As soon as you show me how film cassette openers are biased towards right-handed people, I'm fighting for you, man !

 

[MattKing]

As soon as you show me how film cassette openers are biased towards right-handed people, I'm fighting for you, man !

I always figure that they were biased against people - in general!
Scissors, can openers and many, many cameras - they are out to get us

 

[koraks]

Diversity of thought, participation, and human output should be emergent consequences from striving for excellence and nothing more.

But it doesn't work that way. If you don't consciously promote diversity, we end up with homogeneity. History has proven this time and again, again in just about every social context.

Do you reckon that there just weren't many women classical composers? There would have been more if we hadn't systematically barred them from becoming composers. There would have been if we hadn't forced them to publish their works under the name of men. We would have realized there were more if we had actually given them airplay a little earlier than we only fairly recently started doing. It's a great example of what happens if you unconsciously allow a field of arts to slip into homogeneity. For the largest part, participants and audiences in that field wouldn't have been interested in trying to limit diversity, but it's the emergent behavior they found themselves locked into, for the most part without even realizing it. Happens every time. Every single time. Corporate management culture? Same thing.

 

[chuckroast]

But it doesn't work that way. If you don't consciously promote diversity, we end up with homogeneity. History has proven this time and again, again in just about every social context.

Do you reckon that there just weren't many women classical composers? There would have been more if we hadn't systematically barred them from becoming composers. There would have been if we hadn't forced them to publish their works under the name of men. We would have realized there were more if we had actually given them airplay a little earlier than we only fairly recently started doing. It's a great example of what happens if you unconsciously allow a field of arts to slip into homogeneity. For the largest part, participants and audiences in that field wouldn't have been interested in trying to limit diversity, but it's the emergent behavior they found themselves locked into, for the most part without even realizing it. Happens every time. Every single time. Corporate management culture? Same thing.

This is certainly the contemporary narrative.

I rather strongly disagree, having seen the outcomes of this view flogged in corporate leadership doctrine for the past decade.

However, to say more would take us well outside the reasonable edges of this forum, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[koraks]

This is certainly the contemporary narrative.

I don't care what the narrative is; it's what I've seen happening with my own eyes, as well as how things tend to change if you turn it around, especially in an organizational context.

having seen the outcomes of this view flogged in corporate leadership doctrine for the past decade.

Odds are that you're judging whatever changes you've seen by a set of conservative values.

However, to say more would take us well outside the reasonable edges of this forum, so I'll just leave it at that.

We can discuss areas like business and arts. That's what we're doing. Once it gets to policy, we draw a line; I think we've steered clear of that so far.

I do agree we should drop this though, since it's clear that our views are fundamentally different. As far as I'm concerned there should be no place for the kind of views you've set forth here in either the arts, or business. It's the kind of short-sighted conservatism that has gotten us into very deep trouble over the past century or so.

 

[chuckroast]

I don't care what the narrative is; it's what I've seen happening with my own eyes, as well as how things tend to change if you turn it around, especially in an organizational context.


Odds are that you're judging whatever changes you've seen by a set of conservative values.


We can discuss areas like business and arts. That's what we're doing. Once it gets to policy, we draw a line; I think we've steered clear of that so far.

I do agree we should drop this though, since it's clear that our views are fundamentally different. As far as I'm concerned there should be no place for the kind of views you've set forth here in either the arts, or business. It's the kind of short-sighted conservatism that has gotten us into very deep trouble over the past century or so.

Point of clarification: I'm not remotely a "conservative" as you appear to be using the term. My views are based on my own direct observations. Obviously, our mileage varies ...

 

[koraks]

In this respect I consider your views ultra-conservative. Whether that is representative to your views or attitude in general I couldn't say and I'm very much aware of that.
Btw, the 'ultra-conservative' perception is not intended as a normative statement, although it's clear that I personally have little affinity with that bias in this particular matter. And perhaps 'reactionary' is a better term than 'ultra-conservative'.

 

[Don_ih]

The word "conservative" has become pretty meaningless. It draws in too many ideological associations - all different depending on who uses the word.

 

[chuckroast]

In this respect I consider your views ultra-conservative. Whether that is representative to your views or attitude in general I couldn't say and I'm very much aware of that.
Btw, the 'ultra-conservative' perception is not intended as a normative statement, although it's clear that I personally have little affinity with that bias in this particular matter. And perhaps 'reactionary' is a better term than 'ultra-conservative'.

Well, I'm certainly to the right of Marx and Engels

 

[chuckroast]

The word "conservative" has become pretty meaningless. It draws in too many ideological associations - all different depending on who uses the word.

Exactly, especially in context of how these terms are used internationally.


I feel no need to convert anyone, nor do I think I am materially wrong about these matters having seen the consequences of such ideology. Everyone has to come to their own peace with it all.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I have no quarrel with any of that. It is when diversity itself is made the prime purpose of the work - whether diversity of subject or of creators - that the work falters. I want to see the best possible work, and when we do, diversity is emergent rather than a concious intent glued onto the work.

Life would be boring if we were all bus drivers.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

With photography, there's less interest in the artist than in the work. When someone looks at a photo, they either like it or don't. Most people don't know or care who the photographer is. Think of the thousands of photos you see in magazines, newspapers, on the web, on TV for ads, editorial, current events, science, nature, etc. We have little idea who shot them. It's what makes photography so democratic.

 

[chuckroast]

With photography, there's less interest in the artist than in the work. When someone looks at a photo, they either like it or don't. Most people don't know or care who the photographer is. Think of the thousands of photos you see in magazines, newspapers, on the web, on TV for ads, editorial, current events, science, nature, etc. We have little idea who shot them. It's what makes photography so democratic.

Well, it should be that way.


But, in recent years, it feels like the artist must increasingly face a limus test of proper thinking and acceptable social views to be accepted. What's next? Soviet style re-education camps? China has already gone down this road with their social credit scoring.


And it's not just the arts. This business increasingly permeates academics and the corporate world where, if you don't say the right happy words, you must at least be silent or there is real career damage ahead.

This whole drumbeat of putting the "correct" ideas ahead of the work leads to very bad outcomes. Not the least of these is that people with truly evil views learn how to play the game and hide their actual horrid ideas. The whole thing is largely performative and the monsters have learned how to perform.

My goals as a person, business participant, artist, and citizen is to get the best possible outcomes from myself and others, and to be as kind and decent to everyone I can be. This should not require me to bow to the idea police.

 

[Don_ih]

Is the problem with diversity quotas or with "cancel culture"? They're not two sides of the same coin. Encouraging diversity by targeted opportunities and hiring practices is justifiably an attempt to rectify an imbalanced system. Cancel culture (likely to the horror of the proponents) is actually fascism.

 

[koraks]

Well, I'm certainly to the right of Marx and Engels

Hehe, touché!

Encouraging diversity by targeted opportunities and hiring practices is justifiably an attempt to rectify an imbalanced system. Cancel culture (likely to the horror of the proponents) is actually fascism.

Yup, I can get behind that. Concerning the former (rectify imbalanced system), the basic problem is that any status quo is resilient to change. So some external impetus is required to get it back on track. And it's very difficult to recognize the problem as long as you're only looking at it from the inside.

 

[Peter Schrager]

I actually knew quite a few people on the list
The gatekeepers!

 

[chuckroast]

Is the problem with diversity quotas or with "cancel culture"? They're not two sides of the same coin. Encouraging diversity by targeted opportunities and hiring practices is justifiably an attempt to rectify an imbalanced system. Cancel culture (likely to the horror of the proponents) is actually fascism.

Quotas are just as bad in practice. Like I said, the environment is almost entirely performative. Quotas - soft or hard - are simply met with a different performance.

 

[Don_ih]

Yes, but I get the feeling you're talking about a realm where the performance of individuals really doesn't matter, anyway.

 

[Steven Lee]

Well yeah, a couple of photo tech CEOs are included but Herman/Foma/Kodak are not. We should all feel TRIGGERED!

 

[koraks]

Like I said, the environment is almost entirely performative.

But what are the relevant criteria? That's part of the box constituted by the status quo. People generally find it very difficult to break through that boundary. Yet, it's essential.

 

[chuckroast]

But what are the relevant criteria? That's part of the box constituted by the status quo. People generally find it very difficult to break through that boundary. Yet, it's essential.

Breaking the status quo when there is no compelling reason to do so is the very definition of performative.

The current pressure for diversity solves no cuirently meaningful problem. So long as everyone has equal protections under law, it's off to the races. May the best of us win.

 

[koraks]

The current pressure for diversity solves no cuirently meaningful problem

Wow. I rest my case.

 

[chuckroast]

Wow. I rest my case.

Actually, you rest your opinion, as did I.