That's why Leicas are so expensive

[Thomas Bertilsson]

And a dumptruck will move more gravel than a Bentley R-type Continental.

That's profound. What is the towing capacity of a Bentley Continental anyway?

 

[E. von Hoegh]

That's profound. What is the towing capacity of a Bentley Continental anyway?

It's not the pulling, but the stopping. Probably a ton or so. I should add, my old Nikkors will give me 96-98% of Leica quality - and yes I've made comparisons; I still have the Nikons, don't have the Leicas any more.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

How about a $4000 suit to go with your Leica.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012...beautiful-suits-but-he-cant-afford-to-buy-one

But the tailor can't afford to buy one. So this makes me wonder how many people that make Leicas can afford to buy one?

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I think it's wonderful that there's a market for (at least partially) hand built things these days. The skills required to build one must be something to take pride in, and it's nice for those people to know that there are those who take an interest in those products, for that very reason.
There aren't many institutions like that left in the world today, like the tailor 'Maincoonmaniac' mentioned above, or someone who lovingly dresses a new Leica with its components, or crafts one of their bags for it. All hand built things are expensive.

But again, to me the use of the Leica is one of pleasure alone. The lenses are really good, of course, but it would be enough reason for me to move into a Leica M, and if it wasn't for me getting possibly the kindest offer I've ever had regarding acquiring the M2 that I have, I would probably still not own one, but happily be snapping away with my Pentax 35mm SLRs. They do the job just fine. But they're not as nice or intuitive for me to use, they don't feel as good in my hands, and I have a harder time composing with them. I do appreciate the fine craftsmanship too; that should not go unnoticed.

But essentially I agree with the sentiment that to many the price difference isn't worth it. Either it is, or it isn't, and that's a personal thing where nobody's right and nobody's wrong, only what's right for us as individuals.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I am jobless for last 12 years and took my 60 dollars to buy Leica Mini Zoom with Vario Elmar 35 70.
If you are like me you are lucky , older the wine or whiskey it is better and older and cheaper the Leica it is better.
I bought a Fed 1g 1954 for 45 dollars and will fit a 50 dollar 90mm Elmar for 50 dollar from KEH and it is 50 times better than all Japanese tourist cameras.
If you listen cnn everyday and read latimes , you cant never understand me. Buy Popular Photography 50 60 years old issues and you will see there how the quality amazes you.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

There's a point of view of buying high quality items and keep them for a life time. Quite the opposite of hopping on the fashion and upgrade treadmill. I'm not a frequent updater. I've had my Canon F1(n) system for over 30 years and the same amount of time for my Sinar F1 system. They're my tools and are like old friends. They bare the scars from our photographic adventures. In the old days, a man would only have one or two suits during his lifetime.

 

[E. von Hoegh]

...... All hand built things are expensive.....

Not true. Nor all all hand built things good, or anywhere near good. The Big Mac is hand built, "fresh for you" out of components which have sat in heater trays for the past x length of time.
Virtually nothing is truly hand made; that is made from raw materials by tools guided by the human hand, assembled by hand, and adjusted by hand.
Too many parrot the falsehood that "they don't make 'em like they used to" - junk has always been more prevalent than quality. Junk is not valued, breaks, and is tossed in the rubbish while quality is at least sometimes valued, cared for, and lasts.

We are now in a time where the vast majority have never seen a truly well made, hand crafted item, and wouldn't know it if they did.

 

[E. von Hoegh]

Expensive, and often disappointing in quality.

Why do you keep saying this, with no proof to back it up??

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

jelousy

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Not true. Nor all all hand built things good, or anywhere near good. The Big Mac is hand built, "fresh for you" out of components which have sat in heater trays for the past x length of time.
Virtually nothing is truly hand made; that is made from raw materials by tools guided by the human hand, assembled by hand, and adjusted by hand.
Too many parrot the falsehood that "they don't make 'em like they used to" - junk has always been more prevalent than quality. Junk is not valued, breaks, and is tossed in the rubbish while quality is at least sometimes valued, cared for, and lasts.

We are now in a time where the vast majority have never seen a truly well made, hand crafted item, and wouldn't know it if they did.

I remember spending time with my grandfather as a kid, where if one of his shovels used for farming had a broken handle, he would have scouted the correct type of tree to cut it from, dried it properly over time, and put it away for when it was needed. He'd take it off the shelf, shape it roughly in a lathe, hand carve its final shape, and fit it to the shovel head.
This was nothing extraordinary, just what they did. If I had told him to go buy one he'd have laughed.

It wasn't expensive, no. But it sure was well made and durable, borne out of knowledge handed down from one generation of farmer to the next for decades and centuries. If it were an ax or a hammer, he would pick the wood from a different type of tree, and you bet he had that material on the shelf too for when the day would come to fix something.

I'm thinking about hand built cars, for example - big ticket items, where significant skill is required to put it together. Morgan, for example. Sure, their quality may be questionable, but the appreciation for the cars by those who love them is all the same unwavering. I don't think their support would be as unified if the cars had been assembled in a fully automated factory. That would stop them from standing out compared to the rest of the cars in the world. I'm glad they're still around, and that people appreciate them.

I certainly wasn't thinking about a Whopper with what I said. I guess I should have said 'hand crafted'.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

Yes. I am very jealous of myself. And anyway, I've already stated Leica has not let me down. They are beautifully made items. As to whether the lenses produce sharper pictures, I suppose it is possible, assuming you use a tripod, have zero vibration in the system, perfect film flatness, and a perfectly aligned enlarger with a perfect lens.

I don't own and shoot Leica lenses because of their sharpness.

 

[blockend]

Back in the 1980s when people I knew were buying Leicas, a used M3 in good condition with standard lens cost about 20% more than a Nikon F2 in similar. In other words they were expensive, but affordable. Leica collectors sought exotica - bright lenses, wartime bodies, low run cameras - but left the mainstream stuff in less than mint condition alone. By the late 80s- early 90s, Leica had become an 'investment', and all kinds of run of the mill cameras were being hived away as a hedge against inflation or a retirement fund, which completely distorted the market.

The old value, about one fifth to one quarter more made than the best mechanical Nikons (which were also hand assembled from engineer machined parts) was much truer to the photographic value of the film rangefinder Leica. The current distortion says more about branding and lifestyle statement than it does about photography. Let's face it, working photographers are going to be using DSLRs unless they're sponsored or subsidised by the likes of Leica.

 

[E. von Hoegh]

Well it's funny you brought up Bentley, because a family member of mine has owned many, and currently owns one, and I really hope that's not one of your many examples of 100% quality control and craftsmanship. As for the handmade guns, I have no experience with those so I'll take your word for it.

I don't disagree there are beautifully made things out there. I'm just saying in my experience too many hand made things carry an enormous price tag based on being hand made, and not the final quality resulting from that craftsmanship.

I'm probably overstating the case a little, based on my own disappointments, but I'll admit I am extremely picky.

Well I will certainly agree that too many things which claim hand crafted quality are in fact crap.
The Bentleys I have had experience with are vintage (1919 > 1931) and 1950s Derby (Rolls) Bentleys. The quality was there. I remember reading an interview with a fellow who had built engines for vintage Bentleys. His record time was 3 days, and that with two men preparing parts for him. All of the vintage engines were dynamometer tested (there were 3 Heenan & Froude dynos at the factory) before they were put in chassis, then the chassis was road tested before being sent to the coach builders. Average production was 350 cars per year. I recently spoke with a man who recently drove a 1928 4 1/2 liter from Kansas City Mo. to Lake Placid N.Y. at an average highway speed of 74 mph. The vintage Bentleys came with a 5 year guarantee. Rolls Bentleys are not real Bentleys.

 

[E. von Hoegh]

I remember spending time with my grandfather as a kid, where if one of his shovels used for farming had a broken handle, he would have scouted the correct type of tree to cut it from, dried it properly over time, and put it away for when it was needed. He'd take it off the shelf, shape it roughly in a lathe, hand carve its final shape, and fit it to the shovel head.
This was nothing extraordinary, just what they did. If I had told him to go buy one he'd have laughed.

It wasn't expensive, no. But it sure was well made and durable, borne out of knowledge handed down from one generation of farmer to the next for decades and centuries. If it were an ax or a hammer, he would pick the wood from a different type of tree, and you bet he had that material on the shelf too for when the day would come to fix something.

I'm thinking about hand built cars, for example - big ticket items, where significant skill is required to put it together. Morgan, for example. Sure, their quality may be questionable, but the appreciation for the cars by those who love them is all the same unwavering. I don't think their support would be as unified if the cars had been assembled in a fully automated factory. That would stop them from standing out compared to the rest of the cars in the world. I'm glad they're still around, and that people appreciate them.

I certainly wasn't thinking about a Whopper with what I said. I guess I should have said 'hand crafted'.

I don't think the qualty of a Morgan is as questionable as the care and treatment they sometimes recieve. And either way, a Morgan has "soul", something no assembly line product will ever have. Your grandfather reminds me of my grandfather and his brothers. Those men came from a different world, when self sufficiency was not just valued, but a neccesity.

 

[Dali]

Guys, it is time to land... OK, old cars are nice, have "soul" but sorry, they are much less reliable than any modern car right out the assembly line. Mass production? For sure but a car, like a camera, is a tool after all and any other consideration has to do with psychology and not technology. Not that I disagree with it but going this way prevents from having rationale discussion.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Guys, it is time to land... OK, old cars are nice, have "soul" but sorry, they are much less reliable than any modern car right out the assembly line. Mass production? For sure but a car, like a camera, is a tool after all and any other consideration has to do with psychology and not technology. Not that I disagree with it but going this way prevents from having rationale discussion.

It isn't about reliability or practicality in my mind. It is about loving the tools I use. If I don't love the tools I use, how can I be enthusiastic about it?

 

[BardParker]

"There's no replacement for displacement."

Quote by W.O. Bentley

 

[PentaxBronica]

I've been sorely tempted to buy a Soviet rangefinder before now, which would satisfy my curiosity about them without costing a ridiculous amount of money (although a FED-2 isn't that cheap in the UK - I don't want to buy from outside the EU as we get stung for ridiculous sums by the post office to collect import duty).

My point is that there are superbly made mechanical cameras out there for a fraction of the money of the Leica. Get a good Pentax KX or MX and you have a camera which will still be working when you hand it to your grandchildren. My Dad's K2 is still working perfectly, the only maintenance it's had since 1978 or so is a good clean and replacement light seals.

Assembly line products are quite capable of soul by the way. It's just a matter of the designers not settling for "good enough for the masses". I've driven a good few miles in a 1988 Toyota MR2 which was far nicer than cars half its age. Mass produced, but by people who knew what made a good sportscar. No power steering, no electronics beyond the fuel injection, radio and clock. Just a light, sleek body, lively engine, well-chosen gear ratios and the handling of a go-kart. I'd pick it over a Morgan for the very sensible reason that I'm too tall to fit in those comfortably, it has a roof, and thanks to being a Toyota it doesn't refuse to start when there's an r in the month!

Weirdly given the love shown here for Leicas I find that German cars lack any soul whatsoever. They're just cold and efficient. At the moment I drive a Subaru Forester Turbo which is just as mass produced but has enough quirkiness to make you realise that the designers thought about how it would be to live with, rather than how swoopy they could make the dashboard.

 

[Dali]

It isn't about reliability or practicality in my mind. It is about loving the tools I use. If I don't love the tools I use, how can I be enthusiastic about it?

I am enthusiastic with my practice, not the tools I use, being car, motorcycle or camera.

 

[davela]

I've been sorely tempted to buy a Soviet rangefinder before now, which would satisfy my curiosity about them without costing a ridiculous amount of money (although a FED-2 isn't that cheap in the UK - I don't want to buy from outside the EU as we get stung for ridiculous sums by the post office to collect import duty).

My point is that there are superbly made mechanical cameras out there for a fraction of the money of the Leica. Get a good Pentax KX or MX and you have a camera which will still be working when you hand it to your grandchildren. My Dad's K2 is still working perfectly, the only maintenance it's had since 1978 or so is a good clean and replacement light seals.

Assembly line products are quite capable of soul by the way. It's just a matter of the designers not settling for "good enough for the masses". I've driven a good few miles in a 1988 Toyota MR2 which was far nicer than cars half its age. Mass produced, but by people who knew what made a good sportscar. No power steering, no electronics beyond the fuel injection, radio and clock. Just a light, sleek body, lively engine, well-chosen gear ratios and the handling of a go-kart. I'd pick it over a Morgan for the very sensible reason that I'm too tall to fit in those comfortably, it has a roof, and thanks to being a Toyota it doesn't refuse to start when there's an r in the month!

Weirdly given the love shown here for Leicas I find that German cars lack any soul whatsoever. They're just cold and efficient. At the moment I drive a Subaru Forester Turbo which is just as mass produced but has enough quirkiness to make you realise that the designers thought about how it would be to live with, rather than how swoopy they could make the dashboard.

A Soviet era camera will not show you what a Leica is like, and most likely as you appreciate fine mechanical cameras, you will be disappointed. By in large they are not superbly made. In fact some of the later models (made around the time of the collapse of the USSR) are the worst cameras I've ever seen. Although some of the early models can be made to work (usually with servicing) they are a far, far cry from Leica quality and performance - simply no comparison. (I'll probably get hell rained on me by FSU camera fans here for saying the above, but in my defense I can say I've owned several FSU cameras as well as many Leica's - same with their lenses)

 

[E. von Hoegh]

It isn't about reliability or practicality in my mind. It is about loving the tools I use. If I don't love the tools I use, how can I be enthusiastic about it?

This is what many folks do not get. The tools have to be an extension of the user.

 

[darkosaric]

A Soviet era camera will not show you what a Leica is like, and most likely as you appreciate fine mechanical cameras, you will be disappointed. By in large they are not superbly made. In fact some of the later models (made around the time of the collapse of the USSR) are the worst cameras I've ever seen. Although some of the early models can be made to work (usually with servicing) they are a far, far cry from Leica quality and performance - simply no comparison. (I'll probably get hell rained on me by FSU camera fans here for saying the above, but in my defense I can say I've owned several FSU cameras as well as many Leica's - same with their lenses)

+1 agree 101%
I had zorki 4 (eating my film, loud), kiev (not reliable shutter that sometimes fails, but only sometimes), zenit (died before first film was over), and many other. Only good working soviet camera that I had was lubitel 6x6, but then again - viewfinder of lubitel was pain.

Also I would like to add: just take a look through viewfinder of M3 and then through soviet camera viewfinder.

 

[georg16nik]

...Also I would like to add: just take a look through viewfinder of M3 and then through soviet camera viewfinder.

I prefer the viewfinder or optics of my 1939 FED or my 82 years old Leica, still with its original shutter cloth and still kicking it all seasons, even @ -30°C during winter. Whats the bashing on soviet cameras? You guys happen to own a dog example camera that has been examined by Frankenstein beforehand?
If You have the picture in Your mind and scale focus, an M3 or any M with their supposedly better viewfinders are completely unnecessary. M's are almost twice as big, much heavier.. despite being made of cheap aluminum mostly and some brass here and there, or even zinc (M6 top and bottom covers).
Barnaks up to Leica III are all brass and pocket-able. M is very far away from the original Leica concept and also very far away from being true Made in Germany camera.

To each their own.. or whatever the saying was.

 

[cliveh]

I find that German cars lack any soul whatsoever. They're just cold and efficient. At the moment I drive a Subaru Forester Turbo which is just as mass produced but has enough quirkiness to make you realise that the designers thought about how it would be to live with, rather than how swoopy they could make the dashboard.

I drive a BMW and find it well designed and very reliable.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

I drive a BMW and find it well designed and very reliable.

Me too, I drive one as well. Have for years. A '94 earlier and an' 09 now. I find they have amazing "soul" and I will probably always have a BMW.