That darned old Orange Mask

AgX · Dec 8, 2016

The orange mask finally is just a plain orange layer of even density. Like looking through an orange filter.

The unmasked film is a negative image densitywise and with the colours turned to their complementaries.
You find them shown e.g.in old textbooks. But you also may look on the net for current manufactured maskless films and the respective final negatives. As for instance Rollei CN 200.

FilmCurlCom · Dec 8, 2016

AgX said:
But you also may look on the net for current manufactured maskless films and the respective final negatives. As for instance Rollei CN 200.

If you want to see new results of CN200, you can have a look at my experiment section of my website (link below or here www.filmcurl.com). I did this only some months ago.
Or an older example by someone else here https://medienfrech.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/rollei-digibase-cn200-pro/
I experimented quite a lot with that film but in the end am disappointed by the outcome.

Athiril · Dec 8, 2016

jsmithphoto1 said:
Sorry to keep you all waiting! I have been super super busy! Anyway, I was wanting to get rid of it simply... "because". I want to do some effects in the future, and would like to see what I can accomplish if I, as Anon Ymos (like the name, btw haha) had to say, processed C-41 as E-6. We all know that xprocess E-6 yields blasted color. But it's not the norm to see C-41 xprocessed as E-6. And everyone has this weird obsession with "lomo" and "experimental photography". I personally don't like it, because through the years I've come to love true-to-life results better, but I have a very curious brain and, unfortunately, it will not rest until I see, first hand, the results. I know there is a different color developer that will give unstable dyes and such, but I still want to know

"What if" is what puts air in my lungs.

Is there a way to remove the orange mask??? What does that beautiful C-41 image look like without the orange mask??? How will it print in the darkroom without the elusive orange mask???

How about projecting or mounting with a much brighter backlight given our current LEDs and filter the backlight to match the inverse of the orange mask.

If you're scanning, correct it out.

If you want a "wow" effect then after first developing and rinse, stop the film, wash and bleach with a dichromate bleach to remove the negative, bleach clear, wash, colour develop, rehal bleach (Ferricyanide) normal E6 or C41 bleach should work too, bleach clear, wash and then start again from colour develop step then do all the steps as normal will "double" (not exactly but dMax goes way way up) your colour density.

Massive boost to saturation, contrast and grain. Of course you can also overexpose and pull in the FD for extended dynamic range while still having increased contrast and saturation over normal process, of course that'll compound any errors in colour, but accuracy wasnt the point here.

Colour temperature differences, mismatches, and colour balance issues will also be greatly exaggerated and increased too.

Anon Ymous · Dec 8, 2016

You can also try shooting with an 80A. This will make things a bit better, but it certainly won't solve your problems. Perhaps overexpose a bit too, but you should bracket your first film(s) anyway and see what looks better.

Photo Engineer · Dec 8, 2016

Athiril, if you want to redevelop, you must use a ferricyanide / rehal bleach. If you use an E6 or C41 bleach, the ammonia content will destroy the image.

PE

JoJo · Dec 8, 2016

AgX said:
The orange mask finally is just a plain orange layer of even density. Like looking through an orange filter.

It is not.
Coupler in green sensitive film layer is colored yellow and coupler in red sensitive layer is colored magenta.
When magenta dye is formed in the green layer, the yellow colored coupler looses its color proportional.
When cyan dye is formed in th red layer, magenta color is removed there proportional.
The mask of yellow + magenta is the remaining part of unused magenta- and cyan-coupler.
So a part with 100% magenta + 100% cyan in the negative ( = blue) has no orange mask at all.
Any yellow mask there would be complementary and desaturate the blue color of this part of the negative.

Joachim

Photo Engineer · Dec 8, 2016

In other terms, the mask is a positive image of the dye errors in the negative image. This masks out, or corrects those errors.

PE

DREW WILEY · Dec 8, 2016

So this all apparently relates to why RA4 papers have a light blue coating over the emulsion?

AgX · Dec 8, 2016

JoJo said:
It is not.
Coupler in green sensitive film layer is colored yellow and coupler in red sensitive layer is colored magenta.
When magenta dye is formed in the green layer, the yellow colored coupler looses its color proportional.
When cyan dye is formed in th red layer, magenta color is removed there proportional.
The mask of yellow + magenta is the remaining part of unused magenta- and cyan-coupler.
So a part with 100% magenta + 100% cyan in the negative ( = blue) has no orange mask at all.
Any yellow mask there would be complementary and desaturate the blue color of this part of the negative.

Joachim

I try to keep to easy wording:

The masking is formed by an orange layer installed in the unprocessed film of a density equal to the expected max. total density of the unwanted orange dye built-up. During processing and that unwanted dye built-up the masking dye is reciprocally destroyed. Thus there remains a final orange layer of equal density.
Only by this it can easily be filtered out.

It is a rare case of successfully fighting Devil with Belzebub...

AgX · Dec 8, 2016

Technically speaking you are right, Joachim. And usually I am speaking technically.
But this forum is not restricted to engineers...
The mask proper typically is not even, BUT what impresses the uniniated is that orange cast. And that is even (made up of the mask and the unwanted dyes). And that cast typically is called the mask. And thus my remark of the mask finally being of even density.

Photo Engineer · Dec 8, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
So this all apparently relates to why RA4 papers have a light blue coating over the emulsion?

No, that serves 2 purposes. It is an acutance dye there to prevent loss of sharpness from back reflection off the white surface, and it is also a trimmer dye to adjust the speeds of the 3 layers of the paper to attempt to get in that 50 R range for starting filtration.

PE

DREW WILEY · Dec 8, 2016

Thanks.

JoJo · Dec 9, 2016

AgX said:
But this forum is not restricted to engineers...

It is not restricted to engineers. But to understand things right, it is not always the best way to simplify too much.
You can find 100s of discussions in forums how to "remove" the mask.
Once people KNOW how it works they will never ask this question again
The following Kodak document explains it very simple (last page) http://motion.kodak.com/KodakGCG/up...bat_en_motion_education_kodak_color_films.pdf

Joachim

LAG · Dec 9, 2016

JoJo said:
It is not restricted to engineers. But to understand things right, it is not always the best way to simplify too much.

Absolutely true! (... if I can simplify)

AgX · Dec 9, 2016

There is misunderstanding again and again on the mask issue here at Apug. And the OP is not informed either.
So instead of going into details (and the matter is more complicated than JoJo described) I rather bring over the essential idea and working of the masking. George already stated here that he cannot understand why people want to get rid of the mask and assumes that is due to not understanding it and its benefits.

Photo Engineer · Dec 9, 2016

Here it is simply then. The mask is a dye that becomes another dye. To remove the first, also removes the second. Thus, they cannot be removed singly. If one goes the other does.

Then there is no image.

PE

jsmithphoto1 · Dec 10, 2016

For clarification from earlier responses...

I DO understand to the fullest why the mask is there. I was saying inquisitive minds want to know. Is there a way? If so, what is that process? What will the results be? These are rhetorical questions. This is how my mind works. I want to know the how and why: what-ifs and results from testing theories. This is "just because". There is no special reason.

The input has been EXTREMELY valuable AND informative!!!

AgX · Dec 10, 2016

Well, I took your "rhetorical" questions seriously.

Do not blame me for that!
For the rest have a look at textbook. I am out of the game.

jsmithphoto1 · Dec 10, 2016

darkroommike · Dec 10, 2016

Color neg film processed in color developers produce an image that is all dye after the silver has been bleached or blixed away. I can not think of any way to selectively remove or de-color just one color of dye. On the other hand, and this is NOT what OP was asking, if you processed a roll of color film in a convention black and white developer, stop, fix (no bleach!) you could (probably) decolorize the mask to make the negative easier to print on black and white paper.

Photo Engineer · Dec 10, 2016

Jamison, the colored coupler becomes a dye. The regular coupler, the colored coupler and the dye are soluble in much the same solvents. They can be extracted to leave essentially clear film. This is how we "cleared" film to test for residual Silver metal and Silver Sulfide at the end of a process so that we could tell what effects on grain and color reproduction this retained material had.

It is not altered by B&W processing.

PE

jsmithphoto1 · Dec 11, 2016

Really? That is very interesting. I will try to find more resources on the subject.

LAG · Dec 11, 2016

This thread is a lot of fun!

That darned old Orange Mask

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